Tuesday, November 20, 2018

NCS MOC Live Results

https://live.recordtiming.com/meets/1767

Feel free to post updates from the meet at the comment section below.

Dublin Boys score 18 to win Division I team title led by Loic Scamparin. Dougherty Valley edges Amador Valley for 2nd place 60 to 61. 

Granada teams both score 31 points to win both team titles in Division II.

Connor Livingston wins with the fastest time of the day so far at 14:45.8.

44 comments:

Anonymous said...

Looks like the meet has been called off after five races (Div 1, Div 2, and boys Div 3).

Time to look at rankings to pick state teams?

Anonymous said...

It was a possibility for SJS too. They just got lucky. Well I guess bonus spots for all other NCS divisions! Less unhappy runners.

Anonymous said...

This is totally unfair to all the runners who didn't get to race.

NCS needs to let D4 and D5 have a chance to compete. Everyone who agrees with me should email them, maybe they can reschedule the remaining teams for tomorrow morning.

Anonymous said...

Really curious - at any point will we know who comprises this three-person committee? I do think disclosure here is important.

Anonymous said...

? Half the teams got to run! The others should get a fair shot too! RESCHEDULE!

Anonymous said...

really curious @ 11:43AM are you going to post with your real identity or continue to post anonymously so that you can complain to the committee of 3 if you don't agree with the selections. (Yes, I'm posting this anonymously too because I'm part of the committee of 3...NOT!) But I do know 1 member.

On a serious note, bummer that they couldn't get all the races in. But NCS made the right call.

Anonymous said...

An extraordinary exception that needs to be made is for the INDIVIDUAL ATHLETES that are on the bubble of qualifying from smaller programs that don't have a chance at qualifying as a team. In a sport that is both team and individual focused, some of these individuals know their qualification boils down to finishing Top 18 overall PLUS Top five individually. In some cases the separation in times are a difference of seconds, and to be fair, those seconds should be same course, same race, same day.

Anonymous said...

It is pretty devastating, especially for seniors. The problem was relying on the air quality site that only updates once an hour. The air is now in the yellow zone. They should have just postponed a few minutes. There was sea breeze coming in and you could tell it was clearing. We understand there was a set rule they were following, but sometimes adjustments need to be made, based on what was happening outside. It was pretty obvious the air was getting better not worse after the DIII boys race. Also, DIII girls did not get to run either.

Anonymous said...

NCS clearly screwed this up BIG TIME!!! The meet shouldn't have been run at all. If they couldn't do it last weekend then go straight to a selection via rankings per Atheltic.Net or Milesplit. You can't reschedule the races to a later date and still allow enough time for the runners to recover and run well at state. Even the runners who ran today are only going to get 3 days recovery and will be at a disadvantage come Saturday.

Anonymous said...

This is not a simple solution, the teams who ran today are already at a disadvantage with < 4 days to rest before state; at the same time it’s sad that air quality was good in both Santa Rosa and Ukiah and my impression is that the section didn’t seriously consider moving it; totally agree that names of those on committee should be released with the decision later today

Anonymous said...

It was not a good decision. The air quality index is barely reliable and Hayward does not have a measuring station. The cut off of at or below 150 is arbitrary and not based on science. There was little actual difference in air quality from the start to when it was called off. Postponing, as mentioned above, would have been a better move. In a sport like cross country one cannot compare times and use rankings. This completely devalues the purpose of the meet in the first place. Think how many athletes were ready to run the race of their season for their own place and to help their team move up on the podium. Now, we'll never know...

Anonymous said...

1) Team and individuals that made the commitment to toe the line and race today should have been given a bit more consideration.
2) Individual racers that were on the bubble, should have been given the opportunity to "prove" their eligibility; especially small program schools that don't have history of being super-competitive or getting to "prestigious races' where they can get ranking credit.
3) NCS was gifted an additional team entry in each non-contested race, while there was no provision for individuals; that means 20% more team idividuals (six instead of just five) teams get to move on to States; an equal or greater amount of opportunities should be given to individuals, thus Top 7 08 Individuals, going down to overall 22nd-23rd finisher.

Anonymous said...

NCS state meet entries are up on the North Coast web site.

Anonymous said...

CIF State should ADD an "Open category" for those individuals that were on the bubble of qualifying based on how they could have finished today. My son was ready to race today to prove to himself that he had trained all season to burst out of the bubble as an individual racer. As a Senior, he will not have another chance, after being on the wrong side of the bubble by seconds the previous three years.

Anonymous said...

Everyone knew that having it on Tuesday would still be dicy when it came to the air quality. It was clear that the meet could not be held on Saturday. The NCS was left with few options. No one wanted to cancel the meet with 5 races left to go. Let's give credit to the NCS for putting this together to begin with as the past few weeks have been very difficult for them.

Anonymous said...

NCS should have run Toro Park. Problem solved.

Josh Quintal- Fortuna High Cross Country said...

Super frustrating! Drove 5 hours because NCS told us (schools in Humboldt County) that the race was going to go on, paid for hotel rooms, and then couldn’t race!

Then got the list of selected individuals and teams in my email when I got home (5 more hours). Some mistakes on this list that could have been avoided - NCS should have simply moved the Meet to ANY safe location.

At a Meet we are allowed to file a complaint. Since “The Selection” took the place of the Meet, shouldn’t we get to still file a complaint?

Josh Quintal- Fortuna High Cross Country

Anonymous said...

This is absolutely ridiculous. It’s obvious that cancelling a meet for health reasons will have benefits and consequences and one of those consequences is stealing the fairness of racing with everything an individual has. The beauty of qualifiers is watching what runners and teams can do when it really matters and when it’s all on the line. Where random schools and runners can have break out races or choke. The qualifiers chosen absolutely go against all of this. Bias is a horrible factor controlled by how a school usually runs or how they’ve done past seasons. Past seasons don’t predict possible results as well as season times, which seem to have been ignored. This is disgusting and the teams should seriously be reconsidered after spending a little less time thinning about the names of the schools and the times these athletes have run.

Anonymous said...

This is a shame for all the kids who couldn't run, and how sad that whoever made this call for the NCS was so incompetent. Sure, it was a tough situation, but NCS officials made decisions based on poor science and poor understanding of the local air monitoring numbers. The reported AQI number is based on the AVERAGE reading over the prior hour, and is not released for typically another 20 or 30 minutes. So what's reported at around 10:30am reflects AVERAGE air quality from 9-10am. The actual AQI at 10:30am can be very different. Also, as someone else said, if the Hayward air monitor is not physically located in Hayward, then it's all the more inexcusable to make a decision based on it. Finally, the difference between AQI of 152 and AQI of 149 is not significant and is an arbitrary distinction adopted by the EPA for general suggestions to the public. There's no basis for using 150 as a hard cut-off. What a contrast to how well the CCS handled this, by the way. Salinas and Monterey numbers weren't all the great but the CCS was on the ground at Toro Park on Saturday and recognized that the air in Toro Park was better than the distant monitors suggested.

Anonymous said...

Albert or anyone in the know , it appears in a few cases teams lower in the NCS preview rankings moved ahead of schools ranked higher to get a state meet birth in races that were cancelled, will we ever know the critera used? I know it is a subjective process do to a terrible event and everyone can't be satisfied. However, I believe the student athletes,coaches and families have a right to know the selection process.

Anonymous said...

NCS needs to reimburse Humboldt schools for hotel,gas and food expenses plus comp their entry fees for the next five years.This is a no brainer and should be done ASAP.

Anonymous said...

Just an FYI, vary rarely do 5 individual runners actually get forwarded on to State, because they have to be within the first 12 to 20 finishers, depending on numbers of teams going and it is a rare occasion that all 5 actually get to go to State. In the races that were ran, only one race had 5 individual runners advance. They others had 3 or 4.

That said, the AQI should not have been the determining factor to CANCEL the rest of the races with the delay in reporting and the inaccuracy of the site of the monitor. Postponing for a few minutes and using our senses to determine if it was clearing, which it very clearly was and did, while waiting for the next reading would have been the better decision than relying on poor data.

Unfortunately, it is too late now and we are left to try and help our runners overcome this unfair adversity. It is a learning experience that they will never forget and maybe become stronger from. Life, unfortunately, is not always fair and we need to learn how to deal with those set backs. That is what we will be doing in my home today.

Albert Caruana said...

This has been a very unusual situation with no easy solution. The NCS XC committee tried their best to make the meet happen and I understand there are lots of people chiming in about where the meet should have been held and where. While there may have been other potential sites, there were also other circumstances that prevented the meet from being held at those sites.

Once the meet was discontinued, the next course of action was a selection process. Those of you that follow college basketball and football understand that when a committee has to select certain teams or individuals in this case, some teams and individuals will feel like they were unfairly left out. This is the unfortunate result of such a process.

I am sure all this will be discussed at the section postseason meeting and a plan will be put in place for future section meets.

Anonymous said...

Albert you state that this will be discussed in the future, unfortunately that is too late for our athletes. There were several other plans proposed for moving the meet to air that would have allowed for the meet to begin and end with all runners running. Sadly, they were brushed aside. Perhaps rotating the meet to various courses yearly would stop the entitlement to one course all the time.

RH said...

Albert - What are the published reasons for not using another site? People are saying that, but why? As for the selection process, in other sports, the criteria is known in advance and there is far more transparency. Each league should have had representation at least in the room to observe if not participate. Each league could have ranked their runners by division. It appears the secret committee was rushed and did not really consider all of the races various NCS teams competed in this season. They also did not seem to take into account head to head competition. It also appears league meets were devalued in the selection process as well. What does this say to their importance?

Anonymous said...

So for the cancelled races, does NCS Committee decide which teams are GIFTED the NCS Team Titles, Banners, Trophies, and Medals?

Josh Quintal- Fortuna High Cross Country said...

https://humboldtsports.com/2018/11/20/breaking-four-locals-selected-for-state-arcata-girls-team-left-out/

Anonymous said...

My understanding is that one of the committee's team members was given a "bonus" team spot. I am not suggesting that the team was undeserving. Like many of the comments above, however, I think there needs to be clear disclosure and transparency here.

Anonymous said...

All in all the situation is very unfortunate and is very difficult to prepare for. California X-C has never had to deal with this type of issue (Wildfires) before. That being said, your only sound fall back plan is to rely on season rankings per a pre determined source (Athletic.Net/Milesplit CA) of which everyone is aware of prior to the beginning of the season. Taking average team times from a set number of meets with emphasis on league finals would be the best solution. Overall season performance and most recent performance would be covered by this. Again, not perfect but a solution nonetheless.

Anonymous said...

@9:30 Nope... no controversy.

NCS announced a bonus team spot for every division boys & girls, for races that didn't finish. This was part of the backup plan announced last week.

Anonymous said...

This was clearly a difficult/unique situation, particularly for those athletes that needed to qualify individually. One option that our team is looking at is to compete at the Foot Locker West Regionals on December 1st at Mt. SAC to provide them their Championship experience.

Anonymous said...

No committee members team was given a bonus spot. That is flat out not true.

Anonymous said...

The conspiracy theory is not that there’s an extra spot, but that one went to a coach on the committee. Why don’t you pick the state qualifiers? Take a look at CCS rankings and predictions and how far off they were. Presentation girls weren’t supposed to make it and finished 1 point away from 2nd. King City boys beat Scott’s Valley. Gonzales, the team everyone forgets about because is a public school down south “publiced” SI to win D3. Problem with a committee is the name brand schools get the rankings while smaller schools get passed over. Again, Toro was great Tuesday. Air nice and clean. Or hold it today... it’s raining!

Anonymous said...

What is the status of the protest?

Anonymous said...

I don’t know why the CIF didn’t just say hey, if you really think you deserve to run in the State meet, come on down and run. There’s room on that course for 100 extra runners in every race. Even if you had four extra teams in a single race, that’s not even 30 kids. Do we really think someone would show up who is totally undeserving?

Anonymous said...

It's done, unfortunate situation. Good luck to all at state, and Hapoy Thanksgiving. Maybe time to reflect on the tragedy in Butte county and give thanks thanks we have a home, family and a device to go to Cross Counrty Express and give our views. Thank you Albert for this site.

Albert Caruana said...

Thank you. Appreciate all the visitors to the site.

RH said...

Actually, it's not done. NCS needs to disclose who was on the committee and how the decisions were made. This process needed more league involvement and more oversight. This process was not outlined in my review of the NCS By-laws. My reading shows the Meet Committee should have made the selections and done so with transparency. There should have been clear directions for schools to appeal and an outline for how the appeals would be considered. It is correct that Leah Haley was included, but what about the other worthy runners whose schools did not follow what Gil Lemmon says was the correct appeals procedure? Did this not favor the connected over those not connected.

Additionally, there needs to be an after action analysis done of all of the decision-making that led up to the meet. There are athletes all over the section grieving that their sectional meet was taken away and with it went their chance to qualify for state. Some will never get the chance again. As responsible adults, the board members and staff of NCS must ensure this never happens again.

Anonymous said...

I am all for transparency and accountability. Who is going to make that happen? Also, what could have or should have been done differently?

Craig Stern, Attorney at Law said...

As seen in Press Democrat....
A Montgomery High School cross country runner left off the qualifying list for Saturday’s CIF state meet in Fresno has won an appeal and was added to the list Wednesday morning.

After the North Coast Section cross country championships were halted midway through competition Tuesday in Hayward because of worsening air quality, a state committee selected qualifiers based on previous performance criteria.

Leah Haley, a Montgomery senior, wasn’t included with other qualifiers Tuesday after the committee review.

Montgomery principal Randy Burbank appealed the decision, which could have bumped another runner, possibly Windsor’s Lilja Chung.

But Wednesday morning, NCS Commissioner Gil Lemmon approved Haley’s inclusion — without bumping any other qualifiers.

“Ultimately, in conversation with the CIF, they have decided to not delete any previous entries, but include Leah Haley,” he advised Burbank in an email. “NCS would have deleted the last entry, but glad that this was not necessary, and appreciate the flexibility and recognition of difficult times in NCS by the CIF office.”

Montgomery’s appeal on behalf of Haley was the only appeal submitted according to NCS bylaws, Lemmon said.

Burbank and Haley’s coaches argued her times were better than Chung’s in multiple 5,000-meter races this year.

“Leah is going to state, which is the main thing that needed to happen,” said Montgomery coach Melody Karpinski. “The No. 1 thing was she needed to get in and she got in.”

Haley competed at the state meet last year.

“I understand that would be a mistake to pull someone out” who qualified by committee vote, Karpinsky said. “But there are lots of questions how the NCS handled things this year, especially with canceling midway through, how pennants and medals will be handed out. They have to come up with a better process. The mental breakdown my athlete had to experience for the last 24 hours for a state meet she should have gotten into was just so wrong.”

Albert Caruana said...

A mistake was made regarding the Montgomery runner. It was corrected. If anybody out there has never made a mistake, please feel free to continue to complain.

I think the NCS office did the best they could during a very difficult time. In an ideal situation, all 10 division races would have been contested but it did not work out that way. A committee was convened to determine the state meet qualifiers. As I have pointed out earlier, whenever a committee decides the fate of individuals or teams, some individuals or teams will feel like they were incorrectly left out. No matter who is chosen someone is going to feel like they deserved to qualify to the meet. Happens every year when the teams are selected during March Madness. Right?

Best of luck to all the participating athletes and teams on Saturday.

Anonymous said...

Nuff said!

RH said...

It's not just complaining it is learning for the future.

1. There should have been one or more back-up locations, this should be planned in advance for all NCS events.
2. The AQI of 150 is arbitrary, not scientifically based, and NCS should have allowed for some flexibility. There are areas of the state that are routinely above 150 and allow athletic events outdoors.
3. When it was clear there was going to be a problem holding the meet, there should have been more communication from NCS to member leagues and schools. The communication should have allowed for input as well.
3. Since NCS did not allow for the use of a back-up location, the meet could have started earlier in the day than it did.
4. Rather than cancel the meet, a delay could have been announced. It is disingenuous to say the cancellation was for the safety of the runners and spectators. That is simply not true. Many of the athletes chose to run the course. Many were emotional. The day went on as normal throughout Hayward and the Bay Area.
5. In advance, as part of communication, each league should have ranked their teams and their athletes by division rather than rely on a coach application (that probably was never read).
6. Each league should have had a representative in the room either as a participant or an observer.
7. The criteria for selection should have been made clear before the meet.
8. As soon as the meet was cancelled, the time for the selection should have been announced, held as suggested above, and at the same time an appeal process should have been outlined in case there were mistakes made. It is absolutely terrible that the NCS Director admitted athlete appeals were not considered because they were not filed correctly. It would have been easy to convene a panel of league reps to hear appeals on Wednesday morning.
9. CIF should have allowed for an open boys and open girls race at the conclusion of the division races for athletes who applied and were approved by their sections to participate due to the cancellation of their section races. As stated earlier, every year new athletes emerge in the section races.

I was asked what some suggestions would be, so that is my list. It is important for adults not to forget what it was like to be 17. We must do better in the future.

Anonymous said...

FYI, last year this was added to NCS bylaws...
NCS member schools have implemented an air quality index rule, Bylaw 1003H. The bylaws states:

An air quality index of less than 151 must be registered for all high school outdoor athletic events hosted by NCS member schools during preseason, league and section championship events. NCS member schools may not host outdoor contests when the AQI is equal to or greater than 151. NOTE: Host school determines AQI using an app or website info. (NCS Board of Managers 4/3/18)

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