Central Coast Section at Crystal Springs course
https://www.rtspt.com/events/cif/2023Meeets/ccsxc/
Sac Joaquin Section at Willow Hills Reservoir
https://timerhub.com/get_web_index.php?page=redcaptiming.com/2023/sjsxc/
Northern Section
https://www.athletic.net/CrossCountry/meet/223030/results/all
North Coast Section (live results)
https://diablotiming.com/results/2023-11-18/
San Francisco Section
Oakland Section
More to come this week.
Who was the most impressive individual yesterday? What about team? Who are the teams and individuals that will contend at the state meet?
55 comments:
Some observations from the SJS having watched. 4 boys under 16:00 across all races (Broen Holman, Josh Chu, Jackson Oliveira, Andrew Burr) which is great at Willow Hills. Omar Aslaldi of Oakdale was right around 16:00.
Holman won his race by over 1:15 and was something like 4th all time on the course and Burr won by 55 seconds so those were largely solo efforts.
Jesuit prevailed in D2 despite having a number of scorers sick displaying their depth. Oakdale also won over Ponderosa in D3 and was good those two teams could push one another. Davis is looking very good in D1. Also great to see Oak Ridge boys qualify to State meet for the first time in a long time.
St. Francis and Whitney girls both won their respective divisions and both looked great. Chamberlain, now with Whitney and a BYU commit, was faster overall girl.
That's a great recap of the SJS races. Thank you for sharing.
Very good summary from above for SJS. The temp and dust definitely increased in the afternoon session for the D1/D2 schools and that is why the times in general were slower in the afternoon.
Some ideas for improvement for next year:
Move all the varsity races into the morning. The sections champs should be about Varsity and SJS is the only section (and sport) I know that also features Frosh/Soph and JV categories in the postseason (Track doesn't do it). I think supporting the non-varsity groups is crucial to maintain participation numbers, but we should be prioritizing the varsity races.
Don't have so many USATF officials. Or at LEAST train them on the course. The 3 starters were solid because they are familiar and used to high school races. But the volunteer course monitors that each high school is required to provide were way more helpful than the USATF officials. They didn't know the flow of the race, hindered spectators from travelling over race sections that the runners weren't going to cross until 5-6 minutes later. It was ridiculous and they got in the way.
Some poor unfortunate USATF official with a very quiet voice was positioned by the bathrooms and all she said was listen to the volunteer course monitor. Duh, we weren't going to listen to her because she wasn't assertive enough to control any crowd. Probably a good official for a quiet track event but c'mon.
Stop with the restarts when the slowest runner falls down. Willow Hills is notorious for a tight left turn after 100 yards but the runners that were really factoring into the races had already crested the first hill, when they called the re-start. I believe this happened 3 times yesterday. The #6 or #7 runners on the 9th/10th fastest teams will not make a difference on who is going to state.
There were much larger invites at Willow Hills earlier in the season with 200+ runners and no restarts... why because they only allowed 3 team members to toe the line and then had 4-6 on the 2nd line and 7+ on the 3rd line. I don't understand with the largest race at sections being 80 runners and so many restarts. This needs to be fixed.
I believe the reason was yesterday they put out cones to separate start boxes big enough for 3 runners to toe the line. But since only around 80 runners in each race they promptly ignored them and had everyone spread out so they had all 7 on the line. But when everyone hits that first corner together there are going to be collisions. If the section finals course isn't going to change, then be pragmatic and organize the start line based on what worked at the invites.
I agree with what Mike said above. No need for USATF officials at high school races.
The announcer at the section meet was fantastic and really added to excitement of the meet.
CCS Divisions 1-4 were all won by WCAL teams. However (while also giving credit to all sections champions, runner ups, and applicable state qualifiers) I do want to shout out the Archbishop Riordan coaches.
They’ve essentially built the program up during the past ten years (both as runners and later-turned-coaches, for some cases). They’ve worked hard doing so, while also working as teachers. I know all the teachers and coaches work hard at any school, regardless of all that grading (while looking out for some ChatGPT haha), but for them to turn that program from, “something” (to put it nicely) to what it is today (and consistently making state meets) takes some special dedication. To take that program from what it is to CCS Champions, that’s something amazing right there.
Once again, congrats to all teams for making it this far into the season.
All 5 boys team champs are private schools. Cool. Maybe private schools could just have their own division so its more fair?
CC2 D2 boys: Dominic McMahon ran a 15:46.2, 15th overall, and didn't qualify for state. The next two runners, who also didn't qualify, weren't far behind. D2 is much more competitive than D1 (and D3-D5 though that is "expected").
Bellarmine did take the top spot in combined but three D2 teams were in the top five.
School size isn't a great proxy for competitiveness in XC, at least around here.
Congratulation to all teams and runners!
A poster above said “All 5 boys team champs are private schools. Cool. Maybe private schools could just have their own division so its more fair?”
But on the girls’ side, 3 of the 5 divisions were won by public schools.
And in 2022, 4 of the 5 boys’ divisions and 4 of the 5 girls’ divisions were won by public schools.
There was a lot of talk from the wcal crowd about it being "fair" since divisions are sorted by school size and that the wcal is just "better". These wcal schools have clear advantages over public schools like Woodside and Pioneer for example. How is putting St. Francis in division 2 or St. Ignatius and Sacred Heart in division 3 "fair"? School size is just not a fair way of sorting divisions. They have competitive equity in other sports for a reason
SJS Starters are a problem. Just no people skills and just like yelling at people. USATF officials follow that same lead but there were actually a couple of nice ones at the wood bridge which was unusual.
Get it worked out with the neighborhood or park or whatever to start the races earlier so you can spread them out more. Just not safe to start races while the slowest kids are still coming in and just try to cast them off to the side. Starters sure don't care about those kids safety.
JV girls are also an afterthought. Starting them 2 minutes after JV boys causes quite a tie up. Watching the lead and trail bikes (2 of each) pass each other on the big uphill while the lead girl is trying to get past the last boy, it just doesn't make sense. An hour earlier on the first race would help.
At least they worked out the awards timing, but the early awards were too early. What's the hurry? Give people time to see both the JV race as well as the awards. 2pm would be much better.
Then you factor in that SI, SHC, and likely Riordon draw a huge percentage of their athletes from outside the public school boundaries of the Central Coast Section. SF City, and NCS.
Yes CIF needs two state meets. 1). Private schools and 2). Public schools.
Wasn't St. Francis the only Private School to win a girls' division at SJS?
If we are going to separate private schools from public then we should also separate schools based on income/graduation rate instead of CBEDs.
SJS doesn't have many private schools. Seems more of a bay area issue.
I would agree that the USATF officials were pleasant. Just not necessary.
Average tuition for the 5 CCS boys team champs: $33,797
Coach of Riordan here - To whomever gave us the shoutout - We really appreciate it! Very rewarding. Congrats to all the teams who qualified. And to all the teams who crushed it and missed out on the state meet - I feel the frustration! Keep grinding.
FYI - On the public school v.s. private school debate: I love the fire! I missed this! Haha. No one on our team this year prior to high school had any running experience/training - This is the consistent story here at Riordan. All my time is spent recruiting within the school walls! Theres hard workers at every school, just got to find 'em! And it's not easy!
2 state meets?? CCS seems to be the only one dominated by privates (and it's mostly just the WCAL). The state meet is generally dominated by large public schools (ie Buchanan, Great Oak, Newbury Park, Clovis, etc)
An interesting discussion that usually comes up with many other sports in CCS. We used to be in NCS and most divisions there are dominated by public schools except for Division V which is typically full of smaller private schools.
If you ask many of the coaches that coach at private schools, I think a lot of them would say that many of their runners did not have experience running before high school and if they did, it was a few races in middle school.
If you look at the cross country programs that are consistently good season to season, the biggest factor for their success is coaching. More than likely, those teams have had a coach in their program for a long time and have been successful for many years.
As I said, interesting discussion.
Or they attempt to hire a good coach and not just the science teacher because he walked a 5K once or something.
I believe San Diego and Northern have both had their Section finals as well.
Still to go, are San Francisco, Oakland, Central, Los Angeles, and Southern Sections which will all take place this week.
The problem is competitive equity. Public schools work with kids within area. Private schools pull from all over, recruit. Take Jserra for example. D4 super team. Not local runners. Private schools need own division. Or alternatively you double their enrollment. Yes coaching matters. But it's nice to recruit and pull outside boundaries.
I work at a private school and it's extremely rare for a student to choose to come to my school for their running ability. The admission committee has an entire school population with many programs to consider before cross country and/or track and field are even in the discussion.
Lastly, when you say private school coaches are recruiting, that means you are accusing us of cheating. My top runners played flag football in middle school and switched to cross country after 6th grade. As Coach Willers from Riordan said above, we get to recruit from our own student population. That is how we get the runners for our programs.
I have coached Section championship teams at both Public and Private schools.
It's possible at any school, some are harder than others. A coach that is willing to work hard in growing their numbers on the team is the first step. Not all coaches are willing to do that work that it takes to build a championship program.
I don't think most middle of the road CCS public schools are coached by "a science teacher who walked a 5k once or something"
If you say that good coaching is the reason why these WCAL teams are successful at CCS when there are clearly other socio-economic factors driving their success, it plays into this narrative that these average to low-income public schools could win in the current system if only they had a better coach. This is not true. Many of these coaches are good at what they do. Do any of these schools even have a chance at being competitive at CCS given the current divisional structure?
I don't know any of the coaches personally. I also am not in CCS or WCAL so I don't have that knowledge.
I do know that most public schools give someone working in the school first shot at coaching even if they don't look like a good coach. There are many teachers that think they can hang out an extra hour and collect a stipend. I'm not saying that's what is happening with these schools in question but it's pretty common at some public schools.
I would think when there are a few private schools this a very pertinent issue.
In SJS, there is really only Jesuit private school that affects the competition.
Jesuit got 2nd in D1 last year so they dropped to D2 this year. So for D1 teams it was easier to qualify to state than it was for D2 teams who had to compete against Jesuit.
Jesuit got 1st in D2 this year and will move up to D1 again next year.
Christian Brothers and Country Day had individual boys qualifiers and St. Francis won D3 Girls.
I believe that faculty members still have priority over off campus coaches for coaching jobs. That happened to me at San Mateo HS. After two years, a faculty member wanted to coach the cross country team so I ended up moving to Burlingame HS and coaching there.
What has changed is you don't have PE teachers coaching as much as they used to before. That means more sports are being coached by off-campus coaches.
CB also got second in D4 girls and qualified for State.
Jserra from SoCal is recruiting and they count them as d4
It's about access. Public schools are restricted to students within boundaries. Private schools can pull from anywhere and take from public schools. Additionally overall enrollment numbers across sections is not equal. Southern Sections numbers per division larger so other sections go up against larger schools. Take coaching out of it. Public might pull from 10 mile boundaries. Private no restrictions. This is simply not fair.
We know them. I know that the two of the three country day boy qualifiers have gone to that school since Pre-K so certainly not for running! I think their high school only has about 160 kids of which half of those are boys so can hardly field full team and their top runner also boys play school soccer in the fall too since they are so few kids.
Jserra has a number of athletically motivated transfers or recruiting as I call it. Whatever you want to call it. They sit out half the season which affects them zero and then walk through the state championship uncontested. Not right at all but cif allows.
WCAL situation is different than that. The socio-economics are certainly the factor more-so than the "recruiting" but the advantage gained is likely not much different than a public school in a wealthy area imo
and one of the Country Day boys transfered from Rocklin. Don't all out one private school if you can't call them all out.
It's just simple. Private schools have advantages public schools dont. Public schools at a competitive disadvantage. It's time to call them out. Give them their own division since enrollment matters less for private schools and they recruit from any boundary.
No point in calling them out, it’s been done many times. CIF doesn’t change. A “Private School” division would be an easy walk over for the good private schools so I am sure they wouldn’t mind.
Yes, the schools are expensive, but I know of one school that’s… setting the curve there.
Second this! There’s always going to be work needed to be done to improve.
(Obviously, there’s genetics at play here ACROSS ALL SCHOOLS. But programs (not individuals) that succeed in November (and any sports program across every level) will have to put in the work).
Great job Coach!!!!
This just depends for “competitive advantage” for what though. Sports? Academics?
I have a feeling that a lot of people on this forum are looking forward to/encourage/have achieved some high school and college success too… academically. Just need to put some things in context here.
Also hard for us since there is the option to be anonymous. Shout out to the coaches who’ve not been anonymous.
The kids still have to put in some work. And sometimes this science teacher can coach well. Nothing mutually inclusive.
"Jesuit got 1st in D2 this year and will move up to D1 again next year."
Based on CBEDs, Jesuit will remain in D2.
Shouldn't Jesuit move back into D1 since they dominated D2 this year?
You can't move up divisions unless your enrollment goes up. Doesn't matter how good you are.
There is a competitive equity rule as well. Jesuit was D1 last year because they won 3 out of 4 years previously.
Lincoln-Stockton beat Jesuit in D1 section finals last year, so Jesuit dropped down to D2 this year.
Jesuit won this year, so they move up to D1 next year because they have now won 3 out of 4 years.
Also more importantly, if the three SJS D1 state-qualifying teams (Davis, Turlock or Oak Ridge) don't finish in the top 10 at state, then D1 will only get 2 qualifier spots next year.
Jesuit should have moved to D2 during the 2019 Fall season. The Section instituted a rule that summer that stated D1 winners can not move down, regardless of CBEDS. No other performance rule exists.
If the SJS has competitive equity then why not CCS? A fair compromise would be moving all WCAL teams into D1 and leaving the small private schools in D5
The lil' D3 public school in Oakdale has been the best program in entire SJS last two years. So stop complaining about Jesuit.
Jesuit fits the private school agenda that some are pushing in here.
Oakdale might move up to D2 next year, based on Jesuit as an example. But the previous poster was right...there are not many rules about this.
The only CIF rule is the maximum number for DV enrollment. Each section then decides how to allocate schools across divisions and that is not equal across the state. Two major issues: 1). Southern Section enrollment numbers per division are higher relative to other sections giving SS an enrollment advantage. Oakdale is a D4 school in the SS for example. 2). Private schools ability to pull from anywhere vs. public schools limited to school boundaries. Private schools pull from public schools. The solutions are 1). Consistency in divisions across the state and/or 2). Private schools either have their own division for competitive equity OR double their enrollment to account for their ability to pull from anywhere and develop super teams.
Not every public schools have the same limits in terms of where they can draw from. A couple of examples would be Davis Senior High that doesn't have Freshman on it's campus but has Freshmen on their team. They draw from multiple charter schools.
Schools could also have IB or other programs that allow kids to attend (and compete) for teams not in their area. Also other types of "exceptions" that allow for kids to attend a school not in their area. Not quite as black and white and public schools only have kids in their neighborhood.
It's not at the private school level but there are many ways to go to just about whatever school you want.
Over the past so many years, NCS, CCS, and possibly SJS adjusted their divisions to better match up at the state meet with the typically much larger SS schools. It is very difficult to have the same cut-off numbers for all sections because they are not all the same size. What they have now giving each section the autonomy to establish its own numbers for each division is a good compromise. The Central Section was the only section to have competitive equity but I don't believe that is still in place.
I know coach Walt Lange at Jesuit has said for many years that sections should have their sectional finals and then teams can be reshuffled for the state meet based on size so equal-sized teams compete against each other at the state meet.
What we have now is not a perfect system but it is better than what we used to have now that sections for the most part have adjusted their divisions.
Calm down. Whomever runs the fastest runs the fastest. Whomever does not, does not. Simple as that.
Post a Comment