Brooke Starn seems to have been overlooked. This season: 17:44 at Clovis Invitational (State Course), 17:56 at Mt. Sac Invitational,12:20 Monte Vista Invite, 18:26 at Stanford, second to McCandless at EBAL, third D1 NCS, a bad race at state. Those times should at least garner an honorable mention, given that they are faster than a lot of times run by listed girls.
It has nothing to do with favorites. The biggest race that determines this team (right or wrong) is the state meet and if you don't run up to your potential at state, there is a strong chance you won't make the cut.
Then that's what it should be called: Top NorCal Performances at State. Btw Starn's bad state race was still faster than at least one person on this list. In general the NCS girls seem out of order.
I think you may have over looked the freshman from Andrew Hill. 16:13 at Crystal, and 16:09 at Stanford. 3rd fastest freshman at CCS. His times are substantially faster then most of the kids on the Frosh list.
Nope, Estrella (Hill frosh) not overlooked, he just didn't get enough votes. Freshman boys are tough because they don't usually make it to States which seemed to be a major factor in this years voting (remember, there are no 'rules' in how to vote, it's up to each committee member to make their own choices). Committee had 2.5 members that covered CCS closely (Albert is 1/2 since he also covers NCS closely) so even though committee members try to promote runners that don't make it to States (or even Sections as was the case with Scales) they might not gather the required votes from the other Committee Members who are looking at the kids that made it to States (a benefit for those Frosh that made it to States because they were on a strong team that made it). No system is perfect - the option is to not do this at all, is this what people would prefer...? Let me know, we can do that as well.
Andrew Hill is a low income school on the East Side of San Jose with a high Hispanic population. If he was at a school from a rich, white community like Campolindo or on the peninsula there is no doubt he would have been recognized.
We all love the list, and appriciate the time put in, but every time you guys miss something, you go to the "well why don't you just do it yourself" card. Don't keep doing the list, or have Albert close the comments section if you are offended by our comments when you clearly missed giving this kid an All Nor Cal honor he deserved. There are plenty of others who follow this sport as close as you guys, and aren't asked for thier votes. Don't be so sensative.
In my book, being sensitive is a feeling. Feelings are neither right or wrong, they just are. So by saying "Don't be so sensitive" is the same as saying "Don't be yourself" - sorry, no can do, I am who I am. Now if you wanted to say "Walk it off cry baby" then that I can deal with.
hank
"The faster we run the sooner the fun - plow, plow, plow".
Jorge Estrella was clearly overlooked. He ran 16:30 at CCS and missed making the state meet but was only 8 seconds behind Robert Miranda who went on to run 16:12 at state and claim the Freshman of the Year honors. All his other accolades are listed above.
That said, this sometimes happens and considering the amount of runners posted, that is a pretty good percentage.
I'd say it's more BVAL bias. Probably the biggest league in NorCal. If he'd have run the fastest freshman time ever at BayLands, or anywhere besides Montgomery Hill, they'd be talking about it.
Honestly, I feel like considering how many runners that we have in the NorCal area, what these guys do is not perfect by any means, but pretty darn good in my opinion...The other thing is it's different to miss a Freshman instead of an upperclassmen (if they missed an upperclassmen then it would be less forgiving)...besides as I always say, "it's not how you start, it's how you finish." There were plenty of times that my kids were being overlooked by 'rankers', etc...but again, overall these guys have done a GREAT JOB along with Hank's & Albert's both 'very helpful' websites!!!!! Thanks Guys & happy new year!!!
Reality is that if you do not make the BIG meet at the end of the season it is tough to get ranked. Same as the NCAA's, the Olympics and the World competitions. If you are not at the Championship meet your rankings go down considerably. This is life and reality. I am not absolutely sure that there is a "best" to pick any team of individuals that did not race against each other on the same course on the same date and at the same time. Times are dependent on course condition, weather, time of year run, etc. I appreciate the work of the few that put this together every year, as the runners, and their parents, come and go.
Overall, excellent job ranking team!! Thank you for your time and efforts.
I was going to initially state that Kathyrn Loken in the Honorable Mention category should be switched with Hannah Wohlenberg in the 3rd-team. Loken finished about 90 secs ahead of Wohlenberg consistently (same league) but at sections/state Wohlenberg had a fantastic end of the season and finished ahead of Loken.
That being said I will agree that more weighting should be given to Section/State results. Those runners who peak earlier in the season would of been ranked if the committee made this a weekly list, otherwise tough luck.
Well that wasn't the reality for the Bellarmine kids who neither ran at sections or State. Just to be clear I belive Scales should definitely be All Nor Cal. Nareev's 16:48 at Crystal is awesome too. It did take me a little time to find. I guess Estrella should have run the WCAL FS race, and then he'd have made it? Making mistakes, and being able to admit them is a big part of life too. I'm sure glad you cleared up all the stuff about course, weather, time of year run, ect. Too bad this kid beat almost all of these other kids on their best days, on the same course, and weather conditions. BTW, these comments are not from some one who comes and goes. I'm actually pretty shocked that the people who do this list aren't acknowleging this mistake(Albert did). I have a #1 runner who destroys most of these kids, and he couldn't beat Estrella this year. 16:13 at Crystal( Chacko 16:14) 16:09 at Stanford. 16:35 at BVAL Finals(Walker16:59). 16:30 at CCS 2nd only to Miranda. 15:01 at Montgomery Hill. I'm pretty sure this is the course record for Freshman. It's 4 seconds faster then some Kid name Richard Ho ran a few years back. I just got here. Was he any good?
I FEEL he got bypassed because he is Hispanic and he is from Andrew Hill. Despite a fantastic history of some top individual talent coming through there it is not a Bellarmine, or SCVAL school. It's easy to overlook someone. If it was a "name brand" school he would have got more press. If he had perhaps raced at Woodward, Crystal Springs invite or for a league meet it would have helped. But still. It's ok to make mistakes and apparently stating the obvious makes me an idiot post. But if the kid was in WCAL or SCVAL or somewhere white this would be a different story no doubt. I mean funny how they say it's all about state yet two who didn't run ccs, let alone state made the list. On top of that Estrella beat Nareev by 45ish second to start the season. So what is it? End of season (that imitates the Bell runners) or the entire season (Where head to head he pushed the pace, lost a kick to Scales and crushed the other). You can't have it both ways. And how can Bellarmine get all this talent and never win a state title or at least get on the podium? They are a place tent goes to become mediocre. They should have five runners under 15 or low 15 every year.
I STRONGLY disagree that you FEEL that he was left off the team because he is hispanic and attends Andrew Hill. You made some very strong arguments for Jorge which I agree with you that he should have been one of the top 10 freshmen listed but when you start your comment with such accusations, that is just plain sad.
They got this one wrong. They are usually spot on. EVERY YEAR. I'm going to agree that certain leagues and teams get way more pub then others. Being on certain JO teams seems to have an impact also? It absolutely shouldn't. I disagree with the Hispanic angle. You need to look no further then last year's All Nor Cal Frosh team to see my point.
The guys I know who voted are correct 99.99% of the time. I'm actually glad there's a little controversy. We need to debate more. I miss the old CCS comments board on Dyestat. There is such a great wealth of XC knowledge in the comments section. Albert should add some kind of comments thread, and we should set some rules like no talking demonstrative about students, ect. I want to know what Kevin Lao thinks about all this! WCAL can have all the pub. In the BVAL we'll just take our 8 qualifying spots in track and be happy. I love running smack!
First, thanks for all your good work for the sport we all love. Estrella has a good case to be on the freshman list. So do a lot of others. Race has nothing to do with it and it is offensive to accuse anyone of racism without evidence. All these boys have 3 more years to make their mark. I am sure most will. Besides, there is an 8th grader out there that beat 3 boys on this list head-to-head (one of them twice), so they all need to step it up! Just saying.
I think the comment regarding "low income schools" and "Hispanic" is not a comment about blatant racism but rather that a school with a high minority population and hardly the budget or financial support of other schools in more affluent communities performance is more of a subtle overlook as what occurred.
Thanks for clarifying. No racism, I agree. As a dad of two kids in the WBAL, I can attest that even some "affluent" schools don't have the budget for XC or track and many of the kids have to do it on their own. No excuse to overlook great talent, but Hank et al care too much about the sport to let money matters or influence color their judgement.
Estrella had a good case to be Freshman of the year! Let alonebAll Nor Cal. DyestatCal had him ranked #1 in the state for most of the year. The 8th graders I know ain't beating these kids on an actual 3M high school cross country course anytime soon. Peaking for JO's and beating up on freshman who's season is pretty much over doesn't mean they'll be faster.
That's what is great about this sport - rankings mean nothing, it all gets settled out on the course. Next year, all these kids will be at state (except for maybe the Bells if they have 500 kids on roster) and they can all prove how good they are. That 8th grader will have to step it up big time to beat this talented group at crystal and state, like he did at the JOs.
Great job, Albert! You can't please everyone, and it is easy to overlook some, with the quantity of great athletes. We all wish our kids could "make the list" and many of them have out performed many of the kids on the list over the course of the season, and have fallen short and different times due to illness or injury, not just a bad race....my son included. Congrats to all! We are so fortunate to have this great competition! Happy New Year!
The All-NorCal teams are now posted.
ReplyDeletehank
Brooke Starn seems to have been overlooked. This season: 17:44 at Clovis Invitational (State Course), 17:56 at Mt. Sac Invitational,12:20 Monte Vista Invite, 18:26 at Stanford, second to McCandless at EBAL, third D1 NCS, a bad race at state. Those times should at least garner an honorable mention, given that they are faster than a lot of times run by listed girls.
ReplyDeleteDon't feel bad. Those who vote have their favorites and it should take nothing away from their success.
ReplyDeleteIt has nothing to do with favorites. The biggest race that determines this team (right or wrong) is the state meet and if you don't run up to your potential at state, there is a strong chance you won't make the cut.
ReplyDeleteThen that's what it should be called: Top NorCal Performances at State. Btw Starn's bad state race was still faster than at least one person on this list. In general the NCS girls seem out of order.
ReplyDeleteThe names are not in rank order but by first name order unless the also were a Section Best or Class Best.
ReplyDeleteHank
I thought it was by what the voter put more emphasis, regular season, state or post season?
ReplyDeleteThe rules change every year it seems and yes people have their favorites.
I think you may have over looked the freshman from Andrew Hill. 16:13 at Crystal, and 16:09 at Stanford. 3rd fastest freshman at CCS. His times are substantially faster then most of the kids on the Frosh list.
ReplyDeleteOops. 16:30 at Toro. 2nd fastest freshman at CCS. 15:00 at Montgomery Hill. Most definitely the freshman record.
ReplyDeleteNope, Estrella (Hill frosh) not overlooked, he just didn't get enough votes. Freshman boys are tough because they don't usually make it to States which seemed to be a major factor in this years voting (remember, there are no 'rules' in how to vote, it's up to each committee member to make their own choices). Committee had 2.5 members that covered CCS closely (Albert is 1/2 since he also covers NCS closely) so even though committee members try to promote runners that don't make it to States (or even Sections as was the case with Scales) they might not gather the required votes from the other Committee Members who are looking at the kids that made it to States (a benefit for those Frosh that made it to States because they were on a strong team that made it). No system is perfect - the option is to not do this at all, is this what people would prefer...? Let me know, we can do that as well.
ReplyDeletehank
Andrew Hill is a low income school on the East Side of San Jose with a high Hispanic population. If he was at a school from a rich, white community like Campolindo or on the peninsula there is no doubt he would have been recognized.
ReplyDeleteAlbert,
ReplyDeleteCan we nominate Anonymous @ 9:08 AM as one of the dumbest posts of the year?
The Internet
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletebut the 2nd kid from Bellarmine(neither ran at CCS or State) makes it? If he didn't make it on votes, then you guys flat out got it wrong.
ReplyDeleteWe all love the list, and appriciate the time put in, but every time you guys miss something, you go to the "well why don't you just do it yourself" card. Don't keep doing the list, or have Albert close the comments section if you are offended by our comments when you clearly missed giving this kid an All Nor Cal honor he deserved. There are plenty of others who follow this sport as close as you guys, and aren't asked for thier votes. Don't be so sensative.
ReplyDeleteIn my book, being sensitive is a feeling. Feelings are neither right or wrong, they just are. So by saying "Don't be so sensitive" is the same as saying "Don't be yourself" - sorry, no can do, I am who I am. Now if you wanted to say "Walk it off cry baby" then that I can deal with.
ReplyDeletehank
"The faster we run the sooner the fun - plow, plow, plow".
Jorge Estrella was clearly overlooked. He ran 16:30 at CCS and missed making the state meet but was only 8 seconds behind Robert Miranda who went on to run 16:12 at state and claim the Freshman of the Year honors. All his other accolades are listed above.
ReplyDeleteThat said, this sometimes happens and considering the amount of runners posted, that is a pretty good percentage.
I'd say it's more BVAL bias. Probably the biggest league in NorCal. If he'd have run the fastest freshman time ever at BayLands, or anywhere besides Montgomery Hill, they'd be talking about it.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I feel like considering how many runners that we have in the NorCal area, what these guys do is not perfect by any means, but pretty darn good in my opinion...The other thing is it's different to miss a Freshman instead of an upperclassmen (if they missed an upperclassmen then it would be less forgiving)...besides as I always say, "it's not how you start, it's how you finish." There were plenty of times that my kids were being overlooked by 'rankers', etc...but again, overall these guys have done a GREAT JOB along with Hank's & Albert's both 'very helpful' websites!!!!! Thanks Guys & happy new year!!!
ReplyDeleteReality is that if you do not make the BIG meet at the end of the season it is tough to get ranked. Same as the NCAA's, the Olympics and the World competitions. If you are not at the Championship meet your rankings go down considerably. This is life and reality. I am not absolutely sure that there is a "best" to pick any team of individuals that did not race against each other on the same course on the same date and at the same time. Times are dependent on course condition, weather, time of year run, etc. I appreciate the work of the few that put this together every year, as the runners, and their parents, come and go.
ReplyDeleteOverall, excellent job ranking team!! Thank you for your time and efforts.
I will have to agree with GHPADD.
ReplyDeleteI was going to initially state that Kathyrn Loken in the Honorable Mention category should be switched with Hannah Wohlenberg in the 3rd-team. Loken finished about 90 secs ahead of Wohlenberg consistently (same league) but at sections/state Wohlenberg had a fantastic end of the season and finished ahead of Loken.
That being said I will agree that more weighting should be given to Section/State results. Those runners who peak earlier in the season would of been ranked if the committee made this a weekly list, otherwise tough luck.
Looking forward to next XC season.
Well that wasn't the reality for the Bellarmine kids who neither ran at sections or State. Just to be clear I belive Scales should definitely be All Nor Cal. Nareev's 16:48 at Crystal is awesome too. It did take me a little time to find. I guess Estrella should have run the WCAL FS race, and then he'd have made it? Making mistakes, and being able to admit them is a big part of life too. I'm sure glad you cleared up all the stuff about course, weather, time of year run, ect. Too bad this kid beat almost all of these other kids on their best days, on the same course, and weather conditions. BTW, these comments are not from some one who comes and goes. I'm actually pretty shocked that the people who do this list aren't acknowleging this mistake(Albert did). I have a #1 runner who destroys most of these kids, and he couldn't beat Estrella this year. 16:13 at Crystal( Chacko 16:14) 16:09 at Stanford. 16:35 at BVAL Finals(Walker16:59). 16:30 at CCS 2nd only to Miranda. 15:01 at Montgomery Hill. I'm pretty sure this is the course record for Freshman. It's 4 seconds faster then some Kid name Richard Ho ran a few years back. I just got here. Was he any good?
ReplyDeleteI FEEL he got bypassed because he is Hispanic and he is from Andrew Hill. Despite a fantastic history of some top individual talent coming through there it is not a Bellarmine, or SCVAL school. It's easy to overlook someone. If it was a "name brand" school he would have got more press. If he had perhaps raced at Woodward, Crystal Springs invite or for a league meet it would have helped. But still. It's ok to make mistakes and apparently stating the obvious makes me an idiot post. But if the kid was in WCAL or SCVAL or somewhere white this would be a different story no doubt. I mean funny how they say it's all about state yet two who didn't run ccs, let alone state made the list. On top of that Estrella beat Nareev by 45ish second to start the season. So what is it? End of season (that imitates the Bell runners) or the entire season (Where head to head he pushed the pace, lost a kick to Scales and crushed the other). You can't have it both ways.
ReplyDeleteAnd how can Bellarmine get all this talent and never win a state title or at least get on the podium? They are a place tent goes to become mediocre. They should have five runners under 15 or low 15 every year.
I STRONGLY disagree that you FEEL that he was left off the team because he is hispanic and attends Andrew Hill. You made some very strong arguments for Jorge which I agree with you that he should have been one of the top 10 freshmen listed but when you start your comment with such accusations, that is just plain sad.
ReplyDeleteThey got this one wrong. They are usually spot on. EVERY YEAR. I'm going to agree that certain leagues and teams get way more pub then others. Being on certain JO teams seems to have an impact also? It absolutely shouldn't. I disagree with the Hispanic angle. You need to look no further then last year's All Nor Cal Frosh team to see my point.
ReplyDeleteThe guys I know who voted are correct 99.99% of the time. I'm actually glad there's a little controversy. We need to debate more. I miss the old CCS comments board on Dyestat. There is such a great wealth of XC knowledge in the comments section. Albert should add some kind of comments thread, and we should set some rules like no talking demonstrative about students, ect. I want to know what Kevin Lao thinks about all this! WCAL can have all the pub. In the BVAL we'll just take our 8 qualifying spots in track and be happy. I love running smack!
ReplyDeleteFirst, thanks for all your good work for the sport we all love. Estrella has a good case to be on the freshman list. So do a lot of others. Race has nothing to do with it and it is offensive to accuse anyone of racism without evidence. All these boys have 3 more years to make their mark. I am sure most will. Besides, there is an 8th grader out there that beat 3 boys on this list head-to-head (one of them twice), so they all need to step it up! Just saying.
ReplyDeleteI think the comment regarding "low income schools" and "Hispanic" is not a comment about blatant racism but rather that a school with a high minority population and hardly the budget or financial support of other schools in more affluent communities performance is more of a subtle overlook as what occurred.
ReplyDeleteThanks for clarifying. No racism, I agree. As a dad of two kids in the WBAL, I can attest that even some "affluent" schools don't have the budget for XC or track and many of the kids have to do it on their own. No excuse to overlook great talent, but Hank et al care too much about the sport to let money matters or influence color their judgement.
ReplyDeleteEstrella had a good case to be Freshman of the year! Let alonebAll Nor Cal. DyestatCal had him ranked #1 in the state for most of the year.
ReplyDeleteThe 8th graders I know ain't beating these kids on an actual 3M high school cross country course anytime soon. Peaking for JO's and beating up on freshman who's season is pretty much over doesn't mean they'll be faster.
That's what is great about this sport - rankings mean nothing, it all gets settled out on the course. Next year, all these kids will be at state (except for maybe the Bells if they have 500 kids on roster) and they can all prove how good they are. That 8th grader will have to step it up big time to beat this talented group at crystal and state, like he did at the JOs.
ReplyDeleteGreat job, Albert! You can't please everyone, and it is easy to overlook some, with the quantity of great athletes. We all wish our kids could "make the list" and many of them have out performed many of the kids on the list over the course of the season, and have fallen short and different times due to illness or injury, not just a bad race....my son included. Congrats to all! We are so fortunate to have this great competition! Happy New Year!
ReplyDelete