tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post2670865235139837148..comments2024-03-27T17:43:26.504-07:00Comments on Cross Country Express: What is the toughest XC course in California?Albert Caruanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14434646351717864405noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-73043684629907741032018-08-20T21:56:46.833-07:002018-08-20T21:56:46.833-07:00The Lagoon Valley Park 3 mile course in Vacaville ...The Lagoon Valley Park 3 mile course in Vacaville is without question one of the toughest in CA. The Lagoon Valley Classic also starts the season for many teams in the SJS and usually gives a good indication of who did their homework over the summer. Last year the course was shortened to 2 miles due to excessive heat, but it should be back to the 3 miler this year. <br /><br />Any previews planned for this meet?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-5742974805222523182018-08-20T14:39:40.708-07:002018-08-20T14:39:40.708-07:00Aside from veering into the spike discussion, I to...Aside from veering into the spike discussion, I too vote for Canyon Middle School as one of the toughest courses around. Hills, grass, big start, loneliness, buzzards circling, it has it all. Any place that at 3.0 miles runs a full 45 seconds slower on the boys' level than the state meet is remarkable. And Joaquin Miller's toughness is due to over 25 years of neglect and lack of maintenance. When the entire course is a single track goat path, of course the times suffer. Still, at its best-groomed, it was still a very demanding place to run. But all the courses mentioned have their own particularities and demands and attractions. However, for tough, I'll still go with Canyon Middle School.<br />Peter Brewernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-44875866020874825232018-08-18T21:18:07.673-07:002018-08-18T21:18:07.673-07:00The course was originally designed, back in 1971, ...The course was originally designed, back in 1971, to be a 5K but on the first day of races - low and behold, a trench was dug at the starting line that lasted for most of the '71 season. See history of the course at:<br /><br />http://lynbrooksports.prepcaltrack.com/ATHLETICS/XC/crybook.htm#CCSHistory<br /><br />and in particular the following paragraph:<br /><br />"Crystal Spring's odd distance (2.95) is attributed to the fact that when the<br />course first opened, a large trench was dug for a pipeline right where they<br />wanted the start to be. Hence, they had to move the start forward a bit<br />making the course shorter than the designers had originally intended."<br /><br />They could've changed the course the following year to a 5K since no one broke 15:00 minutes in 1971 but the course designers decided to stick with the odd distance. Had it been a 5K the start would have been a slight uphill for 250m and then the downhill.<br /><br />hankHankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03193101636229726446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-70607553947358578322018-08-18T12:52:44.073-07:002018-08-18T12:52:44.073-07:00Thanks, I got a chuckle out of that. Don't ge...Thanks, I got a chuckle out of that. Don't get me wrong, I love Crystal Springs. But I'm not so nostalgic about an otherwise great course that I think it's perfect, and I'll double down on the idea that the downhill start is its biggest and maybe only real flaw. There's a reason why you don't normally see cross country courses start with a steep downhill, and it has nothing to do with toughness. Sure, you could call the risk of taking a huge fall sprinting down the hill part of the "grit" of the sport, but to me there's grit and then there's just flawed course design. It adds a ton of random risk of being clipped while charging downhill in a huge pack of high school kids that is unnecessary and doesn't tell us anything about who the fastest and toughest runner is. The kid who gets clipped from behind and takes a hard downhill fall isn't tough? By the way, I'm surprised to hear all the problems with Bob, he seems like a teddy bear when I've spoken with him. But you may be right about how he thought of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-89065010606504481872018-08-17T18:19:40.768-07:002018-08-17T18:19:40.768-07:00He was thinking it was MF cross country in the 60’...He was thinking it was MF cross country in the 60’s & 70’s when you ran tough courses. He was thinking it was no big deal cuz kids ran 80-100 mpw. And he was thinking the start line was about 300 meters back. But then when it got moved for the first race he said f-it and kept it there. He was thinking he is MF Bob Rush and if you can’t handle a tough first mile don’t run then. It was about grit more than speed. <br /><br />That’s what he was thinking. <br /><br />If you want to know what he’s thinking now show up without your med kit and he will tell ya. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-90979423365343889412018-08-17T09:58:12.517-07:002018-08-17T09:58:12.517-07:00Come on, Crystal Springs is a really good course. ...Come on, Crystal Springs is a really good course. Rolling hills that are a fair test but not ridiculous, very unusually spectator-friendly, lots of history, generally great weather up in the San Mateo/Belmont hills. Anyone who is complaining about heat at Crystal needs to toughen up and get out of their Northern California bubble. Even when it's hot there, it's nothing like racing in almost any other part of the country when it's hot and humid (south, midwest, northeast, you name it). Racing less than 3 miles in a dry 85-90 degrees is nothing. <br /><br />My only complaints from having raced it many times: let's face it, the downhill start is silly and possibly dangerous. I don't know what Bob was thinking. It is what it is and I haven't seen too many spills, so maybe it works itself out, but it's crazy to have a stampede down a hill in the first 100m of a cross country course. The other thing is that the footing is rutted and not great in parts of the course, especially the first mile. I've been told that it was rolled out in parts at some point and runs 10-20 seconds faster now than it did decades ago, so maybe it's better than it used to be, but I've jogged it and it's still not ideal. But in the scheme of things these are minor complaints and I agree with Albert that we're lucky to have this course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-86735852153302892222018-08-16T22:03:10.123-07:002018-08-16T22:03:10.123-07:00I hope we don’t have to move CCS this season becau...I hope we don’t have to move CCS this season because Cal Fire is using the start line as a parking lot. Oh wait.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-19909304499476073012018-08-16T12:46:19.589-07:002018-08-16T12:46:19.589-07:00So I take it that you don’t like the Crystal Sprin...So I take it that you don’t like the Crystal Springs course?Albert Caruanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14434646351717864405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-39000950394274372252018-08-16T07:15:43.376-07:002018-08-16T07:15:43.376-07:00Crystal Springs is a sweaty nutsack. It’s next to ...Crystal Springs is a sweaty nutsack. It’s next to a freeway. There is legit one trail and no place to warm up. Half of the course no one can even see/no cool sprint finish. The start is a gr8 way for people who’ll come in dead last to ruin the race for real competitors. It’s often like a nice sandy beach. It’s hot/no shade which makes it easy not rot away is your not under a 15x15 team tent. I get that everyone’s been there and it’s good 4 time comparison, but it’s the 21st century and with everything available now we’ve seen a lot of good courses and it’s just not one of them. Old people I’m sorry, but someone call The Feelings Police 👮♀️ it’s time for a new CCS course (thanks to Toro). I get all the cross country history and wutever but come on guys it’s not that cool to talk about a bunch of very amateur athletes whom most are over the hill after maybe 2 years of at the top high school racing go on to work at a Home Depot. Olympic athletes in turn are dedicated individuals who put all they have in to a given craft to perfect it, not putting in some semi-hard work and winning a few races cause yer 5 “10” 130 or have to shave twice a day in high school only to find yerself selling vanities. Grow up, get back to real life and realize carving a course out of an overly dried hill next to a highway just wasn’t a good plan. Stop massaging Crystal’s ballsack and liking it cause everyone does and you want 2B cool cause yer not. Gooday gentlemen.Man With Eyesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-50696062674562874092018-08-14T13:57:02.502-07:002018-08-14T13:57:02.502-07:00I agree with the above poster in that the majority...I agree with the above poster in that the majority of races in California do not have a need for spikes. It's rare for us to race in a rain click course so racing flats are good enough for kids to run very fast.Albert Caruanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14434646351717864405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-12326409956404244282018-08-14T10:00:27.640-07:002018-08-14T10:00:27.640-07:00Crystal is perfect.
16:08 PB in my Nike Duelist.Crystal is perfect.<br />16:08 PB in my Nike Duelist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-50547155707978831982018-08-14T08:21:41.639-07:002018-08-14T08:21:41.639-07:00With regard to wearing spikes in high school X-C r...With regard to wearing spikes in high school X-C races, it doesn't really matter!! At the high school level all runners should be more concerned with their training and racing development and not so much as to what they're wearing on their feet. For 99% of all high school distance runners they should be wearing a comfortable, foot stable-light weight trainer racing shoe with adequate traction for races. Wearing spikes at this level only increases the risk lower leg and foot injuries. Most of if not all the X-C racing spikes have very little stability and negligible traction advantage. These 'Spikes" are only beneficial if the race is run on extremely wet and slick golf courses which is very rare in California. Finally, There really is no argument here with regard to the legitimacy of Crystal Springs. Yes, other courses have their pros and cons but no course can match the balance of hills and flat, weather diversity, consistency year in and year out and finally the history of amazing runners who have raced there.......Most without spikes!!! :) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-51760625330833572292018-08-10T16:23:40.250-07:002018-08-10T16:23:40.250-07:00No course is perfect and you mentioned some of the...No course is perfect and you mentioned some of the warts of the Crystal Springs course. You also did mention some of its good points as well and I would add it's also fairly spectator friendly. We are very fortunate to have a course dedicated to cross country and while Bob can be rough around the edges, he has put in a TON of work over many years so that we can use it every season. I will tell you that finding good courses is really difficult and if there comes a time when the Crystal Springs course is no longer available for cross country folks, it will be missed immensely. Albert Caruanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14434646351717864405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-47510083263995958752018-08-10T16:15:41.948-07:002018-08-10T16:15:41.948-07:00I really don’t understand all the love on here for...I really don’t understand all the love on here for Crystal Springs. Maybe it’s nostalgia? Fact is that course is normally scorching hot. There’s no shade. There’s no parking. Bob goes around and destroys anyone for every little thing. The 1st mile is absolutely aweful with a 1/4 mile cliff to start the race. It is so dry you eat just the entire way and have a mouth full of dirt by the time you’re done. That is if you don’t get stung by the bees have their nests in the gopher holes that you can step in and break your ankles. Only thing good about the course it’s never changed, it’s all dirt and last 2 miles are good XC. Good course but far from Disneyland. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-85600338261853085232018-08-10T12:41:01.412-07:002018-08-10T12:41:01.412-07:00Albert, Adidas tops in the 80s? They were in the ...Albert, Adidas tops in the 80s? They were in the mix, but I think Nike was already dominating by then. Check out these photos from the mid-80s from Hank's site of the Mastalirs and the Bellarmine team at Crystal (#6 all-time): all I see are Nikes with possibly some Asics/Tigers. http://lynbrooksports.prepcaltrack.com/ATHLETICS/XC/1985/emastalr.jpg http://archive.dyestat.com/ATHLETICS/XC/1985/reg1bell.jpg<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-77924536653369224322018-08-09T22:16:13.465-07:002018-08-09T22:16:13.465-07:00We're off the main subject but I loved me some...We're off the main subject but I loved me some Tigers.<br /><br />HankHankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03193101636229726446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-32780068990745455932018-08-09T22:04:56.686-07:002018-08-09T22:04:56.686-07:00I believe when I ran high school in the 80s, Adida...I believe when I ran high school in the 80s, Adidas was the go-to running shoe company.Albert Caruanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14434646351717864405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-56027538156517735932018-08-09T22:03:23.784-07:002018-08-09T22:03:23.784-07:00@5:24 I love a good Bonfonte joke but are Adidas a...@5:24 I love a good Bonfonte joke but are Adidas a real shoe company anymore. I’m partial to Nike XC spikes which I intend to wear at the CCS meet this year. Come at me bro!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-66495338337859965402018-08-09T17:24:58.217-07:002018-08-09T17:24:58.217-07:00Lighten up, Francis!!!
On another note, Ron Erns...Lighten up, Francis!!! <br /><br />On another note, Ron Ernst, I am glad I wasn't the only one who chuckled about the Gilroy Gardens/ Disneyland analogy. Funny stuff. For the record, I set my Crystal Springs PR in Adidas Tokyo's!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-76281463838345986592018-08-09T12:29:13.932-07:002018-08-09T12:29:13.932-07:00"I am pretty sure that CA does not allow spik..."I am pretty sure that CA does not allow spikes but there are other states that do." <br />You being "pretty sure" does not make it a fact<br /><br />"I know for most athletes that compete at NXN, it's usually the first time that they race in spikes."<br />CONJECTURE - You know of no such thing as you could not possibly know most of the athletes that have competed at NXN.<br /><br />"Youth track is not the same or related in any way to cif competition." <br />DEFLECTION - You didn't say CIF doesn't allow runners to wear spikes, you said "runners can't use spikes in California." Youth track includes high school aged athletes up to age 18 IN CALIFORNIA so it's relevant to rebut your statement.<br /><br />"You are correct in that the rule may not be specifically stated but I have been coaching since 1992 and have seen it posted many things before." <br />Seeing it posted does not make it a fact. If it's not stated in the rules, then it's not a rule, or in this case, if it is stated in the rules, then it's allowed absent a section overlay. <br /><br />"I am pretty sure I am not making this up." <br />I heard that a man gave birth to an alien baby and I swear I'm not making that up either. This, however, does not make it a fact. <br /><br />"Lastly, there is no way golf courses are going to allow spikes so even if spikes were legal, meet management would not allow it. <br />I'm guessing that you don't golf do you?<br /><br />I swear I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just don't get why you are so adamantly defending a position that is clearly incorrect. The rules are right in front of you and they don't say what you say they say or apparently what you believe they should say.<br />Maybe the CIF overlooked it and forgot to state that spikes are not allowed. That's possible, but as of right now, it doesn't say that. If a kid wears them and the meet doesn't specifically state otherwise, I'd love to see them try to DQ the athlete. Not gonna happen!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-21533752017784583982018-08-09T12:24:44.368-07:002018-08-09T12:24:44.368-07:00I know that I wore spikes on the old Crystal Sprin...I know that I wore spikes on the old Crystal Springs course back in 1968, twice. It tore my heels up, twice. I don't encourage spikes at xc meets, I also don't really care - if a course/meet mgmnt allow them and a runner wants to use them then go for it - that's what "Hank" says.<br /><br />HankHankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03193101636229726446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-46108367705324396492018-08-09T11:48:28.496-07:002018-08-09T11:48:28.496-07:00I am pretty sure that CA does not allow spikes but...I am pretty sure that CA does not allow spikes but there are other states that do. I know for most athletes that compete at NXN, it's usually the first time that they race in spikes. Youth track is not the same or related in any way to cif competition.<br /><br />You are correct in that the rule may not be specifically stated but I have been coaching since 1992 and have seen it posted many things before. I am pretty sure I am not making this up. <br /><br />Lastly, there is no way golf courses are going to allow spikes so even if spikes were legal, meet management would not allow it. Albert Caruanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14434646351717864405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-2148347073191086242018-08-09T11:17:11.361-07:002018-08-09T11:17:11.361-07:00I don't understand why people are so quick to ...I don't understand why people are so quick to believe and then repeat just about anything, even in the absence of proof. You cannot say "but it's also a state rule" if it's not in the state's rules. Correction: you can say anything you want, but that doesn't make it true. <br /><br />Here it is again and louder for the people in the back. The CIF position on uniforms is the NFHS position on uniforms, and footwear is part of that. See this link: https://www.nfhs.org/media/1019365/nfhs-tf-uniform-rules_518_.pdf<br /><br />If you go to cifstate.org right now, click on SPORTS>CROSS COUNTRY>RULES, you will see that it points you to the NFHS rules and rule changes for 2018/19. Each Section can determine for themselves whether spikes are appropriate for their situation and add overlays to the rule. Some have, others have not. In the absence of such an overlay, the NFHS rules apply. This. Is. Fact. <br /><br />Just because you "don't think that any major invitational or section level meet will allow spikes" doesn't mean that "runners can't use spikes in California." What you consider to be "major" might be different that what others think. This blog often turns elitist and only cares about the best or the top tier programs, particularly the boys and specifically the ones in the CCS, however, there are 1,514 CIF member schools in California - 591 of them in Northern California. So, is the standard now that if it's not a Stanford invite, Mt Sac or Woodbridge, it doesn't count? Do you know what they are doing at the Yreka XC Showdown or the 12th Annual Bill Springhorn Cross Country Classic in Redding? Last I checked that was still California. Even the USATF Pacific allows youth runners to wear spikes in competition. See Document here: https://www.pausatf.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/2017-YXC-PA-Championship-Meet-Info.pdf<br /><br />This may all seem like much ado about nothing, because in the grand scheme, most really don't care if you can wear spikes or not. The bigger issue and the one that irritates me most, is that we are all getting dumber because no one fact checks anything. Truth is being eroded little by little to mean something else. We have to stop doing things because they've always been done that way and saying things because everyone else is saying it. <br /><br />Whether you can or cannot wear spikes at Stanford, whether top invitations will allow it or not, whether the CIFSS says you cannot, whether Hank says so or not are all irrelevant to the simple fact that the statement "runners can't use spikes in California" is demonstrably false.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-528515077940031212018-08-09T06:24:43.820-07:002018-08-09T06:24:43.820-07:00From Hal Harkness’ in regards to the spike rule.
I...From Hal Harkness’ in regards to the spike rule.<br />It is from the SS Blue Book, but it is also a state rule.<br />They took most everything out of the By-laws several years ago. It's still in the State Championship Handbook. Don’t think any major invitational or section level meets will allow spikes. <br />Albert Caruanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14434646351717864405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-17985702702061718892018-08-08T22:12:42.934-07:002018-08-08T22:12:42.934-07:00The fastest course has to be Woodbridge, it might ...The fastest course has to be Woodbridge, it might as well be a track. I don't get the point of a course that has literally no hills, even surface etc. Not a whole lot you can do about it, but seeing how few Northern California teams travel down there it distorts speed rankings, etc. It also seems that most NorCal courses are 5k, while most in Southern California are 3 miles, any reason for that or maybe I am wrong? Daniel Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17347480995711727514noreply@blogger.com