tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post2077114797427000671..comments2024-03-27T17:43:26.504-07:00Comments on Cross Country Express: Entering athletes and teams into Track and Field meets with false entry timesAlbert Caruanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14434646351717864405noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-14044619580993900432014-04-15T00:42:21.547-07:002014-04-15T00:42:21.547-07:00I'm going to just assume the Varsity 3200 entr...I'm going to just assume the Varsity 3200 entries for Top 8 will be updated. 2 St Francis kids ranked 1,2, and 3 Willow Glen kids with made up times.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-67016522557441092062014-04-04T07:57:35.407-07:002014-04-04T07:57:35.407-07:00Or better yet get some guts and ask the coach them...Or better yet get some guts and ask the coach themselves to their face. I'd love to see if anyone has the courage to call them lazy or a liar to their face. Instead their smile, shake hands and be a coward. Perhaps a bit extreme but my point is it's easy to just ask at the next meet. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-8553076048600382512014-04-03T20:43:16.432-07:002014-04-03T20:43:16.432-07:00If you want to know what the detail expectations a...If you want to know what the detail expectations are for meet entries (I'm only talking about the F/S Classic right now since that seems to be the main meet of this discussion), why doesn't someone email the Meet Director (Willie Harmatz) and ask him. Or give him a call and interview him, get his side of the story... get the facts out there (especially on this board for then it can be searched for reference for future years). You can "what-if" all you want but until you get it from the MD, it's all just opinions and conjecture.<br /><br />hankhanknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-61720823098329143062014-04-03T13:20:48.613-07:002014-04-03T13:20:48.613-07:00Another point in general:
It's one thing to h...Another point in general:<br /><br />It's one thing to have the technology available, and another to use it effectively. You can probably verify marks within Direct Athletics/Athletic.net (if not, would be a useful feature for meet directors). Unfortunately, I've checked my school's DA account for XC and track, and for the past several years, every meet on the schedules still lists "awaiting results" (including meets like K-bell, Stanford, and Mt. SAC). So either the interface is lacking, or the meet directors aren't fully utilizing the system. Both contribute to our current problem.Coach Timnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-59116878828149587832014-04-03T13:17:46.527-07:002014-04-03T13:17:46.527-07:00On F/S Classic:
It's not about St. Francis. I...On F/S Classic:<br />It's not about St. Francis. It's about the fact that the expectations for the meet are unclear. It's a fact that the meet information doesn't say anything about marks being verified or not, it just states they must be electronic. I interpret this to mean that the kid has to actually run a race, with FAT, that results in the same time I enter. And I'm going to run my team in a way that enables me to fulfill those expectations. Others interpret the rule to mean "must have two decimal places," which clearly offers more freedom.<br /><br />If verifiability isn't the case, and estimates are acceptable, I can run my team very differently. I can make different scheduling decisions (racing and training), different transportation decisions, etc. And, I'll be far more willing to cut slack to schools in the situation of St. Francis (especially when the kids perform to the level they did, clearly deserving).<br /><br />As is, I'm in a position where I made decisions that weren't optimal for my team in order to meet expectations that weren't there. I forced myself to follow rules that other people didn't. And I feel animosity towards St. Francis that isn't fair or justified. And that's really annoying.Coach Timnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-47086643424284104102014-04-03T10:49:29.669-07:002014-04-03T10:49:29.669-07:00I think hammering on one school at this point has ...I think hammering on one school at this point has become nonproductive. <br /><br />Time to move on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-24468969828201801262014-04-03T10:07:24.248-07:002014-04-03T10:07:24.248-07:00Somebody used St. Francis as an example above whic...Somebody used St. Francis as an example above which is why they were singled out. Obviously they were not the only school to enter their athletes with similar marks. <br /><br />I appreciate all the posts from everybody and keeping it somewhat civil :DAlbert Caruanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14434646351717864405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-11779942976766040642014-04-03T09:54:24.410-07:002014-04-03T09:54:24.410-07:00Are people hating on St Francis because they are C...Are people hating on St Francis because they are CCS Champions? Because other schools did this, but they seem to be the only team people are dishing on. I guess it's true: when you're at the top there is a big target on your back, and all people want to do is tear you down,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-31482060777037089282014-04-03T09:43:56.086-07:002014-04-03T09:43:56.086-07:00Is this not why we have trials? Even if people put...Is this not why we have trials? Even if people put in estimated times, the best sixteen runners get through. Trials act as some sort of safety net against these practices. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-20171200251068140092014-04-03T09:12:49.674-07:002014-04-03T09:12:49.674-07:00There were three weeks of invites and two duals be...There were three weeks of invites and two duals before the deadline. St. Francis also had a scrimmage. I believe in 6 meets you could fit a 3200 in. Otherwise enter one of the events they have times for. No excuses. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-42251515577107745382014-04-03T08:43:12.027-07:002014-04-03T08:43:12.027-07:00I just have a question- with so few league meets r...I just have a question- with so few league meets run before this invitational's entries were due, *how* is a frosh runner going to have any electronically-recorded time at all? I guess the answer is that the coach has to make sure that their frosh runners are *all* entered in at least one early invitational like Dan Gabor or DDF. <br /><br />Thus these invitationals become gateways to this Top 8 meet, the coaches have to enter their frosh runners in them to get recorded times, and THEN can enter the Los Gatos Top 8. No estimates, no fudging or nudging. Am I wrong?Nilsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-66176782449467208082014-04-03T08:34:39.309-07:002014-04-03T08:34:39.309-07:00For those defending St. Francis - how many other t...For those defending St. Francis - how many other teams did not use real times? If all of the other teams had real times, then it speaks for itself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-23823868132781276492014-04-02T23:26:08.510-07:002014-04-02T23:26:08.510-07:00Annon 10:32
CCS for frosh-soph should have the be...Annon 10:32<br /><br />CCS for frosh-soph should have the best competition. But if everyone estimates we have the problem we are discussing. Calling the coach a liar is a bit harsh but it is part of the problem being discussed. These kids should have run one earlier to get in. Just follow the rules. Run a qualifier. It's not hard to do. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-40864427378559004142014-04-02T23:16:01.563-07:002014-04-02T23:16:01.563-07:00To Head Coach ('14):
If you had an idea that ...To Head Coach ('14):<br /><br />If you had an idea that your freshen could run 2:25 in the 800. Why didn't you enter them at that mark? <br /><br />Wouldn't entering two kids in with a no mark, when you have an idea of what they're capable of, be worse than entering them at 2:25 when they haven't run the race? <br /><br />I'm just saying, having those 2:25 kids in an heat with no marks is usually worse when they're going up against kids who can't even break 3:00. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-66837471242977278422014-04-02T22:32:38.966-07:002014-04-02T22:32:38.966-07:00I think I need to remind you all that the seeds e...I think I need to remind you all that the seeds entered were slower than what they ran, except in the case of the 9:58 runner, who had no one within a fifty meters.<br /><br />Fact is, I guess some people don't want the best competition on the track because their coach estimated their performance. I mean, this is essentially CCS for the frosh-soph division, why wouldn't you want the best in the section out there? I mean, this is supposed to be the TOP athletes in the section. There are other meets like K-Bell where no one gets rejected, so race there if you want to be in a competitive race.<br /><br />By estimating the seeds, there was no harm done. This is why we have trials; we get a real seed before the race that really matters. This argument really sounds like someone just doesn't like St Francis and were trying to detract from the performance that these three individuals had on the track last Friday. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-29181718305724148362014-04-02T19:56:14.303-07:002014-04-02T19:56:14.303-07:00No one said the Saint Francis runners did not dese...No one said the Saint Francis runners did not deserve to be there. But the meet requires 2014 marks. Their coach "estimated" or "fabricated" or "lied" to enter their kids. <br /><br />Again. All deserving. All lies. <br /><br />Perhaps now lies and exaggerations are accepted truths. But I was taught a lie is a lie. They learn that in mass at St. Francis too. <br /><br />Coaches estimate/lie to get kids in. All deserved to run but certainly part of the problem. They could have easily ran a dual meet. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-85919596852351018802014-04-02T17:02:22.454-07:002014-04-02T17:02:22.454-07:00Well, I just think we should apply the Lance Armst...Well, I just think we should apply the Lance Armstrong defense: <br /><br />"But everybody's doing it." <br /><br />So it's not cheating if everybody is doing it, right?<br /><br />"As coaches, we regularly fancy ourselves role models and teachers of life lessons. Bastions of morality and righteousness in a world of voyeurism and ‘me first’ selfishness. Of ‘team first’ and ‘fair play’ above ‘individualism’ and ‘winning at all costs’.<br /><br />"And I’m sure it’s all true…<br /><br />"Except when we need to get our team in the seeded heat. Or make sure our team gets accepted into the meet.<br /><br />"Then those central tenets of our coaching philosophies get temporarily pushed aside because, well, everyone else is doing it.<br /><br />"When we only follow the rules when they’re convenient, we might as well not follow any of the rules.<br /><br />"We can’t expect ‘those other coaches’ to do better if we’re not willing to do better ourselves. Lying is lying."<br /><br />- This subject was hashed out on another site. To read see that discussion, go to: <br /><br />http://completetrackandfield.com/the-lance-armstrong-defenseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-36936058926152644432014-04-02T14:54:05.371-07:002014-04-02T14:54:05.371-07:00Brewer:
(A) It's not just high profile meets ...Brewer:<br /><br />(A) It's not just high profile meets where this happens and has a negative impact on honest coaches and their athletes. In the 800m race at our League Champs last year my runner was bumped from the 7th seed to the 9th seed because a coach of two runners entered times that were fictitious. That meant that my runner would have had to compete in a heat with 15 others, rather than the final heat with just 7 others. He was trying to qualify for NCS. I raised a BIG stink (asking for verification that the coach could not provide) and was able to get him in the final heat. One of his runners was 12 seconds off his entered 800 time.<br />(B) Don't estimate times. At the Dan Gabor meet I had two freshmen that I figured could probably run 2:25 or so for an 800, but they had never run an 800 in a race. The only honest entry time is No Time (NT). This is what I did.<br /><br />Just Be Honest.Head Coach ('14)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-61152855397478552172014-04-02T13:33:08.543-07:002014-04-02T13:33:08.543-07:00@1:06 Can you read? I know it did not rob anyone o...@1:06 Can you read? I know it did not rob anyone of running because all three Saint Francis runners qualified for the finals. Clearly that states that they deserved to be there, so how do you think that there's even a possibility they robbed someone? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-44212325196503357042014-04-02T13:15:28.613-07:002014-04-02T13:15:28.613-07:00Stop arguing about a single school.
Saint Franci...Stop arguing about a single school. <br /><br />Saint Francis had three runners in that two mile. <br />NONE of those three runners had official times from any invitational in 2014. <br /><br />The first saint francis runner was seeded at 9:50 and ran 9:57. You can't ask him PR after winning the mile AND PRING IN THAT EVENT. He also had not run a two mile this year and his entry was his 3000m converted. <br /><br />The second saint francis runner also did not have a 3200m and his seed was a converted time. None of these kids have official 3k/3.2k times from any invitational, so would you rather have a coach 'estimate' accurately, or blatantly falsify the .00? <br /><br />The third runner does not have any time for 3000/3200m. I just checked online, none of these boys have official times, so how can you get mad at a coach when he UNDERestimated his athletes AND THEY PERFORMED BETTER THAN EXPECTED. this argument specifying saint francis is trivially pointless and deviates from the overall point of Albert's post. <br /><br />In conclusion, stop singling out a certain team/coach/athlete. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-25236526327392949432014-04-02T13:06:25.395-07:002014-04-02T13:06:25.395-07:00Anonymous 12:55 PM how do you know it did not rob ...Anonymous 12:55 PM how do you know it did not rob somebody of running in the meet.<br /><br />What are we teaching the kids? Don't need to work hard and run in races to qualify. Don't worry about that I can just write down a time.<br /><br />Now on I will suspect any Saint Francis time enter into a meet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-25870430397543542032014-04-02T13:06:15.106-07:002014-04-02T13:06:15.106-07:00Hank @ 7:33 PM comment,
Have we come to entering...Hank @ 7:33 PM comment, <br /><br />Have we come to entering time, meet achieved, date, and a link to click on for verification? Maybe so. Few meet results are not on line anymore, and if one argues small league meets are not on line, then start using athletic.net where even any form of competition can be entered and locked.<br /><br />Why falsify a mark for a t-shirt? H***, my athletes want the sombrero. Just saying...<br /><br />And to Hank's 12:24 entry about "Who's to say that any coach didn't contact a Meet Director..." I called out an athlete's entry a few years ago. She was entered at a fast time that she had never run before to get in the race, so I contacted the meet director, and that is exactly what took place. The coach had contacted the meet director, asked and obtained permission to convert another time. End result: She didn't even come close.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-4163663103770739372014-04-02T12:55:21.752-07:002014-04-02T12:55:21.752-07:00How is ESTIMATING the same as LYING? The times ent...How is ESTIMATING the same as LYING? The times entered were honest estimates, not lies that unfairly robbed someone of the chance to run.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-67512135946640628462014-04-02T12:24:20.699-07:002014-04-02T12:24:20.699-07:00Remember, Willie (or any Meet Director) can determ...Remember, Willie (or any Meet Director) can determine if he wants to accept an athlete or not. Who's to say that any coach didn't contact a Meet Director, tell them their story and the Meet Director says "OK, enter them with a mark that you feel is accurate". I don't know what coaches go through to enter their athletes (and neither do you), so let's error on the side that we don't know the whole story.<br /><br />hankhanknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31292861.post-55206436624466939092014-04-02T12:19:38.510-07:002014-04-02T12:19:38.510-07:00Annon 10:39,
Thank you. So the truth is St. Fran...Annon 10:39,<br /><br />Thank you. So the truth is St. Francis made up marks for its runners. The Top 8 asks for CURRENT 2014 marks only. So clearly they fabricated entries and should not have been allowed to enter. You want to run in a meet that has qualifying marks? Run a meet to qualify!<br /><br />Again, they ran great... but the coach lied to get them in. This is the problem with our sport.<br />HONESTY people, not that hard! The coach should have put them in at NM and asked the meet director to make an exception.<br /><br />Does St. Francis do this for other qualifying meets as well?<br /><br /><br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com