We went through this last year with my daughter and it can be a long recovery. It is important to completely recover. I was impressed that her coach seems to understand this and won't rush her back.
Best of luck to her on a fast recovery so we can watch her tear up the track in the Spring. However one correction to the article. Last year in XC she lost to three NorCal runners both at Stanford and then State - Verdon, Garcia and Ankhelyi.
Based on what Carrie Verdon went through last season Hiltz should sit out XC and maybe run track.She'll get a full ride somewhere and be more valuable to her college team if she's healthy.Verdon was injured(stress fracture)in November 2011,ran on it at the state meet and beat Garcia.Unable to run at Footlocker.Did not let the injury heal long enough and rushed back into training for track.Over-raced and over-trained in the spring.Was injured most of the spring but ran through the pain.Finally had to call it quits after NCS/MOC.Hiltz and support crew would be wise to shut down for at least six months.Should consult Amol Saxena.
That is a lot of speculation about Verdon. I am sure her future running career and health were strongly considered when the decision whether to continue to train or race was made.
Why do you think this is speculation?After a great race in the fall at NCS/Hayward her team overtrained before State which is when she was first injured.Her coach did not give her enough time to properly heal,raced her in the Dream Mile,Arcadia,Mt.Sac,etc.Ran her in the 800,1600 and 3200 at the league championships.She was noticeably limping at Tri-Valley after her races(1600 and 3200).Her coach elected to run her at NCS/MOC when he should have shut her down.She only ran in and won the 3200 and then her season was over.If you think this is speculation then you should contact her HS coach.
Well, if Verdon ran for her team in all of these races, then her coach, by default, ran her. That seems pretty clear. What information he had to make his decision at the time we can't know without asking.
She didn't run state, so at some point it became clear that it wasn't in her best interest. Beyond that, we are speculating.
redshirting? or redshirting because she is still recovering? 800, 1600, 3200- why not throw in a 400 and 4x400 or 2 marathons a month? how much stress does anyone think a young, developing body can endure, no matter how talented? Nikki Hiltz, a great, truly great, runner, but too many races, too many events: the unfortunate fate of too many high school runners- I'm reminded of Ned Tannebaum, Lucy McCullough, (and I worry about Gabe Arias) not running or still struggling. ease up on the load and there will be fewer injuries
I thought red-shirting too, but there are other runners listed with "R" next to their year in school, and I assume this means red-shirting, so I was puzzled. Her name is not even listed. I hope everything is o.k...
I believe those are runners that have redshirted already and are now competing. So a redshirt sophomore is a runner who could have redshirted their freshman year, competed last season and is now in their 3rd year at Colorado but only 2nd year as a competitor.
It's possible the runners that are redshirting this season as freshmen are not listed on the roster.
So I feel like a few things need to be clarified here. First, to the anonymous posters out there: please don't speculate about how people on other teams were "over raced" or "over trained" when you are not a member of any of those teams. Second, every runner is different and injuries are unfortunately a part of the whole process for most of them. To simply say they got hurt because they "over raced" or "over trained" is a cop out: there are so many different factors that are in to play when it comes to injury that it is rarely just one factor that causes someone to get hurt. And finally, I thought this was a discussion about Nikki Hiltz, not Carrie Verdon, so please let's get back on topic instead of speculating about other athletes. Best wishes to all this xc season, Andy Lindquist Campolindo HS
I think the discussion (or as you call it "speculation") of training and coaching phylosophy is absolutely a valid topic and one reason we have forums, message boards, comment sections and coaching clinics. Please do not take the high road and pretend you have never called into question another coaches training or racing strategy.
Secondly, this discussion is very valid and high profile programs and athletes are usd as examples. It's the same reason Chuck is invited to speak at such clinics. You can't take the good and not the bad, it goes with the territory.
If the anonymous poster is wrong please explain so we can learn as parents, coaches, athletes and fans. Otherwise be prepared for "speculation."
First, I was the one that used the word speculation.
Second, you are absolutely right that this is an open forum for discussion but when you start calling out specific programs and athletes then use your name with your posts.
Dear concerned parent: Track and Cross Country are difficult sports which can lead athletes to be susceptible to foot and leg injuries, obviously. Most coaches try to stay on top of their athletes' physical and mental conditions. Often times an athlete may not be totally honest, or may be in denial because he or she wants to compete. It's rarely deliberate and it comes from a love of competing, so he or she may hold back information unwittingly. But, nonetheless, injuries creep in in spite of our best attempts to try and gauge our athletes condition and to minimize their injuries. The top priority of any coach is the health and welfare of his or her athlete. We do our best and try to minimize mistakes. Campolindo has a superb program, and Chuck and Andy are excellent coaches. Let's hope that Nikki returns to top form as soon as possible. I can't wait for my athlete to hopefully face her in a race. We all care, we all love our athletes, we love the sport. Why else would be do it. So let's discuss, as Albert says.
These really talented kids seem to be a bit like race horses - they can be very delicate. They really just want to run and will try to run even when it isn't in their own best interest. They are teenagers after all & not really capable of longterm decision-making.
Coaches and parents are the gatekeepers, but don't always know exactly what is wrong with an athlete, all pain not being equal. Good to get the sports med folks involved for these kids, I think.
Well put. I think what makes a lot of the top runners great is their tolerance to pain and sometimes that is not in their best interest when dealing with an injury.
Who ever mentioned Gabe Arias obviously has no idea what has been going on with him or his training. He sat for the entire track season (after consulting his coaches and team mates) specifically to recover, and the injury he was recovering from had absolutely nothing to do what so ever with the stress fracture he had during cross country season (the same stress fracture that he broke the ncs d5 record on). Also insinuating that the coaches of these athletes work their runners too hard shows further that you have little to no idea about the circumstances of the athletes mentioned in this thread. NCS has a plethora of great coaches who know exactly what they are doing. To name just a few Chuck Woolridge, the staff at UHS, the coaches at Saint Marys high school, the coaches at BOD, and my own coaches Tony Fong and Alex Mason. Injuries are an unfortunate part of running, I've had injury problems for the majority of my high school career, but to say that the injuries are directly the fault of the wonderful coaches of these athletes is absolutely uncalled for and wrong.
Well said. We've had several runners injured this year who have hardly done any running at all.I've experienced kids getting injured simply because they've grown. My own son missed an entire season of track due to tendinitis because his muscle development did not correlate with his growth spurt.
Would like clarification from Louis Rodrigues on his post if possible. 1.Are you saying that he sat out the track season because of an additonal injury and not the stress fracture sustained in the fall? 2.Did he break the NCS D5 record while running on/with a stress fracture?
Sometimes athletes overwork themselves. My son was an NCS XC and 3200 champ 20+ years ago. His senior year he ran before school and before bed (in the dark). We couldn't get him to cut back and his coach had no idea what he was doing. At the state meet he ran hurt and stayed hurt for his college days. I guess I'm saying, don't blame the coach unless you know the whole story.
The previous poster states "don't blame the coach unless you know the whole story" alleviates the coach of the negative stigma attached to the whole overracing/overtraining story but when a coach is aware of an athlete's injury history and has a program where the athlete's are "afraid" to tell the coach that they're hurting because he might get "mad" then it's on the coach.He has coached for twenty years but the athletes must endure his "negativity" if they ever pull up lame.Most college coaches treat their athletes better.
^ I disagree. Most college coaches use you to win so they look good and keep their job and feed their egos.
Have you run college? It's survival of the fittest man. 90+ mpw, workouts harder than any race you'll endure that injures 90% of the team in hopes 5-7 rise to the top and win a title.
Dear Anonymous: I'm wondering what you base your sweeping generalization -"most colleges coaches"- on. Is it personal experience? My college coach wanted to win, but also cared about the condition of his athletes. Also, the runners I've coached who have gone on to run in college have all expressed satisfaction with their coaches. No one has complained of ruthlessness. Coaches seem to be such an easy target. I reflected on the statement by the parent who couldn't dissuade his son from running morning, noon and night. The obvious question is why didn't you inform the coach? Perhaps he or she could have found a way to prevent your son from over-training. It's a collaboration, after all, between athletes, coaches and parents. I really don't believe that most college coaches are ego-centric to the point of sadistically breaking down another person. Some perhaps, but not all. As someone asked above, offer proof before you make a blatant accusation.
1) Running injuries generally occur when a training/racing error (or series of errors) exceeds the biomechanical/physical capacity of the individual to withstand that particular error. 2) left to their own devices, an ASPIRING runner will eventually commit sufficient errors to lead to injury. The more immature the runner (fewer seasons of wisdom acquired), and the less supervised / coached that runner is, the more likely that runner is to commit sufficient errors. 3) in this fashion, running tends to be Darwinian beyond simple physiologic gifts inherited
At least on some teams there is also a component of "doing it for the team" in this drive to run when one ought to rest. I have two xc athletes who have not been tested to that limit thus far, but would likely run injured to help their team win a big race.
The coach controls very little of that - the team is the "band of brothers" and carries this bond from year to year. XC really is a team sport and adversity builds the bond... they do it for each other.
Sometimes people get hurt, and honestly, we're not always gonna know why. especially in a case like this. I don't feel like anything positive is gonna come out of speculative banter.
its funny how the more comments there are on these threads, the more evil it becomes.
We went through this last year with my daughter and it can be a long recovery. It is important to completely recover. I was impressed that her coach seems to understand this and won't rush her back.
ReplyDeleteaargh - what a bummer. Take your time, come back strong.
ReplyDeleteBest of luck to her on a fast recovery so we can watch her tear up the track in the Spring. However one correction to the article. Last year in XC she lost to three NorCal runners both at Stanford and then State - Verdon, Garcia and Ankhelyi.
ReplyDeleteThis is sad news, it's a joy to watch her run. Best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery.
ReplyDeleteBased on what Carrie Verdon went through last season Hiltz should sit out XC and maybe run track.She'll get a full ride somewhere and be more valuable to her college team if she's healthy.Verdon was injured(stress fracture)in November 2011,ran on it at the state meet and beat Garcia.Unable to run at Footlocker.Did not let the injury heal long enough and rushed back into training for track.Over-raced and over-trained in the spring.Was injured most of the spring but ran through the pain.Finally had to call it quits after NCS/MOC.Hiltz and support crew would be wise to shut down for at least six months.Should consult Amol Saxena.
ReplyDeleteThat is a lot of speculation about Verdon. I am sure her future running career and health were strongly considered when the decision whether to continue to train or race was made.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think this is speculation?After a great race in the fall at NCS/Hayward her team overtrained before State which is when she was first injured.Her coach did not give her enough time to properly heal,raced her in the Dream Mile,Arcadia,Mt.Sac,etc.Ran her in the 800,1600 and 3200 at the league championships.She was noticeably limping at Tri-Valley after her races(1600 and 3200).Her coach elected to run her at NCS/MOC when he should have shut her down.She only ran in and won the 3200 and then her season was over.If you think this is speculation then you should contact her HS coach.
ReplyDelete^Maybe YOU should contact her high school coach before you make assumptions.
ReplyDeleteWell, if Verdon ran for her team in all of these races, then her coach, by default, ran her. That seems pretty clear. What information he had to make his decision at the time we can't know without asking.
ReplyDeleteShe didn't run state, so at some point it became clear that it wasn't in her best interest. Beyond that, we are speculating.
Did Verdon go to Colorado? I was curious, so I just checked their XC roster and didn't see her name. I wonder what is up...
ReplyDeleteShe may be redshirting.
ReplyDeleteredshirting? or redshirting because she is still recovering? 800, 1600, 3200- why not throw in a 400 and 4x400 or 2 marathons a month? how much stress does anyone think a young, developing body can endure, no matter how talented? Nikki Hiltz, a great, truly great, runner, but too many races, too many events: the unfortunate fate of too many high school runners- I'm reminded of Ned Tannebaum, Lucy McCullough, (and I worry about Gabe Arias) not running or still struggling. ease up on the load and there will be fewer injuries
ReplyDeleteI thought red-shirting too, but there are other runners listed with "R" next to their year in school, and I assume this means red-shirting, so I was puzzled. Her name is not even listed. I hope everything is o.k...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cubuffs.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPID=260&SPSID=3960&DB_OEM_ID=600
I believe those are runners that have redshirted already and are now competing. So a redshirt sophomore is a runner who could have redshirted their freshman year, competed last season and is now in their 3rd year at Colorado but only 2nd year as a competitor.
ReplyDeleteIt's possible the runners that are redshirting this season as freshmen are not listed on the roster.
That's my guess so don't quote me.
Oh I think you are right because it lists Catrina McAlister as a "RFr" and this is her second year there, I believe. Hope that's the case.
ReplyDeleteSo I feel like a few things need to be clarified here. First, to the anonymous posters out there: please don't speculate about how people on other teams were "over raced" or "over trained" when you are not a member of any of those teams. Second, every runner is different and injuries are unfortunately a part of the whole process for most of them. To simply say they got hurt because they "over raced" or "over trained" is a cop out: there are so many different factors that are in to play when it comes to injury that it is rarely just one factor that causes someone to get hurt. And finally, I thought this was a discussion about Nikki Hiltz, not Carrie Verdon, so please let's get back on topic instead of speculating about other athletes. Best wishes to all this xc season,
ReplyDeleteAndy Lindquist Campolindo HS
" there are so many different factors that COME INTO play when it comes to injury..."
ReplyDeletefixed that for you
Andy,
ReplyDeleteI think the discussion (or as you call it "speculation") of training and coaching phylosophy is absolutely a valid topic and one reason we have forums, message boards, comment sections and coaching clinics. Please do not take the high road and pretend you have never called into question another coaches training or racing strategy.
Secondly, this discussion is very valid and high profile programs and athletes are usd as examples. It's the same reason Chuck is invited to speak at such clinics. You can't take the good and not the bad, it goes with the territory.
If the anonymous poster is wrong please explain so we can learn as parents, coaches, athletes and fans. Otherwise be prepared for "speculation."
First, I was the one that used the word speculation.
ReplyDeleteSecond, you are absolutely right that this is an open forum for discussion but when you start calling out specific programs and athletes then use your name with your posts.
Dear concerned parent: Track and Cross Country are difficult sports which can lead athletes to be susceptible to foot and leg injuries, obviously.
ReplyDeleteMost coaches try to stay on top of their athletes' physical and mental conditions. Often times an athlete may not be totally honest, or may be in denial because he or she wants to compete. It's rarely deliberate and it comes from a love of competing, so he or she may hold back information unwittingly.
But, nonetheless, injuries creep in in spite of our best attempts to try and gauge our athletes condition and to minimize their injuries.
The top priority of any coach is the health and welfare of his or her athlete. We do our best and try to minimize mistakes.
Campolindo has a superb program, and Chuck and Andy are excellent coaches.
Let's hope that Nikki returns to top form as soon as possible. I can't wait for my athlete to hopefully face her in a race.
We all care, we all love our athletes, we love the sport. Why else would be do it.
So let's discuss, as Albert says.
These really talented kids seem to be a bit like race horses - they can be very delicate. They really just want to run and will try to run even when it isn't in their own best interest. They are teenagers after all & not really capable of longterm decision-making.
ReplyDeleteCoaches and parents are the gatekeepers, but don't always know exactly what is wrong with an athlete, all pain not being equal. Good to get the sports med folks involved for these kids, I think.
Well put. I think what makes a lot of the top runners great is their tolerance to pain and sometimes that is not in their best interest when dealing with an injury.
ReplyDeleteFor the last poster, feel free to post again with your name attached.
ReplyDeleteThank you.
Who ever mentioned Gabe Arias obviously has no idea what has been going on with him or his training. He sat for the entire track season (after consulting his coaches and team mates) specifically to recover, and the injury he was recovering from had absolutely nothing to do what so ever with the stress fracture he had during cross country season (the same stress fracture that he broke the ncs d5 record on). Also insinuating that the coaches of these athletes work their runners too hard shows further that you have little to no idea about the circumstances of the athletes mentioned in this thread. NCS has a plethora of great coaches who know exactly what they are doing. To name just a few Chuck Woolridge, the staff at UHS, the coaches at Saint Marys high school, the coaches at BOD, and my own coaches Tony Fong and Alex Mason. Injuries are an unfortunate part of running, I've had injury problems for the majority of my high school career, but to say that the injuries are directly the fault of the wonderful coaches of these athletes is absolutely uncalled for and wrong.
ReplyDeleteWell said. We've had several runners injured this year who have hardly done any running at all.I've experienced kids getting injured simply because they've grown. My own son missed an entire season of track due to tendinitis because his muscle development did not correlate with his growth spurt.
ReplyDeleteWould like clarification from Louis Rodrigues on his post if possible.
ReplyDelete1.Are you saying that he sat out the track season because of an additonal injury and not the stress fracture sustained in the fall?
2.Did he break the NCS D5 record while running on/with a stress fracture?
Sometimes athletes overwork themselves. My son was an NCS XC and 3200 champ 20+ years ago. His senior year he ran before school and before bed (in the dark). We couldn't get him to cut back and his coach had no idea what he was doing. At the state meet he ran hurt and stayed hurt for his college days. I guess I'm saying, don't blame the coach unless you know the whole story.
ReplyDeleteThe previous poster states "don't blame the coach unless you know the whole story" alleviates the coach of the negative stigma attached to the whole overracing/overtraining story but when a coach is aware of an athlete's injury history and has a program where the athlete's are "afraid" to tell the coach that they're hurting because he might get "mad" then it's on the coach.He has coached for twenty years but the athletes must endure his "negativity" if they ever pull up lame.Most college coaches treat their athletes better.
ReplyDelete^ I disagree. Most college coaches use you to win so they look good and keep their job and feed their egos.
ReplyDeleteHave you run college? It's survival of the fittest man. 90+ mpw, workouts harder than any race you'll endure that injures 90% of the team in hopes 5-7 rise to the top and win a title.
There's a reason it's called the machine.
Dear Anonymous: I'm wondering what you base your sweeping generalization
ReplyDelete-"most colleges coaches"- on. Is it personal experience? My college coach wanted to win, but also cared about the condition of his athletes. Also, the runners I've coached who have gone on to run in college have all expressed satisfaction with their coaches. No one has complained of ruthlessness. Coaches seem to be such an easy target. I reflected on the statement by the parent who couldn't dissuade his son from running morning, noon and night. The obvious question is why didn't you inform the coach? Perhaps he or she could have found a way to prevent your son from over-training. It's a collaboration, after all, between athletes, coaches and parents. I really don't believe that most college coaches are ego-centric to the point of sadistically breaking down another person. Some perhaps, but not all. As someone asked above, offer proof before you make a blatant accusation.
My apologies. I thought you might have caught the "machine" reference. I am referring to my experience at Stanford.
ReplyDeleteNot saying its bad, I ran well and got PRs in every distance... Until I got injured.
Parents don't inform the coach because they, the parent, think they know better.
ReplyDelete1) Running injuries generally occur when a training/racing error (or series of errors) exceeds the biomechanical/physical capacity of the individual to withstand that particular error.
ReplyDelete2) left to their own devices, an ASPIRING runner will eventually commit sufficient errors to lead to injury. The more immature the runner (fewer seasons of wisdom acquired), and the less supervised / coached that runner is, the more likely that runner is to commit sufficient errors.
3) in this fashion, running tends to be Darwinian beyond simple physiologic gifts inherited
At least on some teams there is also a component of "doing it for the team" in this drive to run when one ought to rest. I have two xc athletes who have not been tested to that limit thus far, but would likely run injured to help their team win a big race.
ReplyDeleteThe coach controls very little of that - the team is the "band of brothers" and carries this bond from year to year. XC really is a team sport and adversity builds the bond... they do it for each other.
Sometimes people get hurt, and honestly, we're not always gonna know why. especially in a case like this. I don't feel like anything positive is gonna come out of speculative banter.
ReplyDeleteits funny how the more comments there are on these threads, the more evil it becomes.